TITANS OF NUCLEAR

(0:46-8:42) Early Lead-Cooled Reactors
(Janne Wallenius introduces his research at KTH in Stockholm, Sweden, focused on nuclear fuel development, and how it led him to lead-cooled reactor technology)

Q: Where did your education begin?
A: At some point during primary school, Janne Wallenius decided he wanted to save the world by developing nuclear energy. He went on to study Engineering Physics at Chalmers University of Technology in Gothenburg, Sweden, followed by a PhD in Fusion from Uppsala University. In 1996, Janne started his post-doc in a research associate position at KTH Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm where he has been developing lead-cooled reactor technology ever since. At this time, KTH was mainly funded for doing transmutation of nuclear waste using accelerator-driven systems, which were generally lead-cooled. Janne has also been doing research on nuclear fuel development with a main focus on nitrate fuels for plutonium and americium burning. Some fuel types have better density of uranium, meaning the fuel can operate for a longer time in the reactor, however, this is compared to the reference of the industry standard oxide fuel. The major difference in fuels is thermal conductivity. In a normal oxide fuel, the temperature difference between the pellet surface and the centerline of 1,000 degrees C. This difference is reduced to 150 degrees C with a metallic alloy, allowing it to be less sensitive to transients and easier to achieve passive safety. Lead-cooled reactors were first studied for application in American and Russian nuclear submarines in the 1950’s, since the system allows submarines to be very compact. The U.S. program stalled because it was discovered that lead is highly corrosive, while the Russian program interpreted their first test results a bit more positively, launching their first submarine with two reactors in 1963. The system suffered a core melt due to oxidation of the lead after a few years of operation. This led Russia to study and implement an oxygen control system on the same submarine and later launch more submarines with extraordinary performance. To control oxygen in a lead-cooled reactor, the oxygen concentrations must first be monitored with different sensors. Because oxygen is consumed all the time at the free surface, oxygen must be added into the system at a certain rate. This can be accomplished by dissolving lead oxide pebbles into the coolant, exposing the coolant’s free surface to steam, or by use of an oxygen pump.

(8:42-18:05) Development of LeadCold Technology
(How disclosure of Russian lead-cooled reactor technology impacted global research, leading to the creation of Janne’s advanced reactor designs and his company, LeadCold)

Q: Did the rest of the world give up on lead-cooled reactors?
A: Lead-cooled reactors were abandoned until the mid-1990’s when the Russians disclosed their technology and started to have a commercial program. The coolant has a very high boiling temperature, meaning there is practically no loss of coolant due to boiling and good potential for natural convection. Decay heat removal can be achieved in an even more compact form in a lead-cooled reactor than a water-cooled reactor. Passive safety is a strength of lead coolant and if there is a core melt, the lead coolant serves as radiation protection and an in-situ filter. Natural convection testing has been completed in Italy, South Korea, and in Stockholm, Sweden at KTH. The first lead-cooled experimental facility at KTH was set up in the nuclear safety department and has been extensively used for natural convection experiments. While the power is not representative of full power, but the height difference between the heat source and the heat exchange is important to validate the transition from forced flow to natural convection flow and to identify any instabilities.

Janne Wallenius participated in national and European international government-funded collaborations. In 2013, the Swedish nuclear industry got into a bad financial situation and stopped funding his research on nuclear waste transmutation. At the same time, Janne was not able to renew contracts with the European Union, so he could not afford to hire any new PhD students. They had made some progress developing novel technology for lead-cooled reactors, so Janne and his colleague decided to see if they could commercialize what they had made, starting the company LeadCold. Advanced reactors have material problems that have to be resolved. With the exception of sodium, the focus needs to be on material development and qualifying them under adequate conditions. It has taken Janne ten years to go from an initial idea to a steel that he believes will serve well in a commercial environment; this time frame is his first priority. Commercializing a new material requires meeting quality and production requirements. Janne’s tight collaboration with Swedish steel industry has allowed for new material samples to be created with methods that were scalable.

(18:05-27:23) Ideal Materials for a Lead-Cooled Reactor
(Why material science is crucial to the long-term success of advanced reactor designs, with a focus on corrosion and irradiation tolerance)

Q: What are some of the remaining materials challenge that exist in a lead-cooled system?
A: Corrosion is still the major hurdle to commercialization of lead-cooled reactors. Even though the Russians developed oxygen control, it is not sufficient for an ordinary stainless steel to survive in a lead-cooled reactor any longer than a year. Over 20 years, Russia developed a silicone alloy steel that would have improved corrosion tolerance and liquid load. However, this particular type of steel becomes brittle under irradiation, so there is a limited temperature range at which the reactor could be operated. Janne Wallenius and his team decided to go a different track and developed an aluminum alloyed steel based on historical Swedish experience and industrial production. He was able to modify an industrial alumina-forming steel so it could be used in a nuclear reactor without becoming brittle. Retaining the corrosion tolerance while achieving the irradiation tolerance was the challenge. Since the aluminum alloyed steel is not mechanically strong enough to be used as a pressure boundary, so the steel must be welded on top of conventional steels that are approved by ASME as pressure boundaries. In a light water reactor, stainless steel cladding is used on top of carbon steel which is used as a pressure vessel. The same is true in lead-cooled reactors. The final challenge is to prove aluminum alloyed steel can be welded on top of steel while meeting the ASME criteria for the compound system. The first lead-cooled commercial reactor Janne designed was for the Canadian Arctic. In this area, the cost of electricity was so high that operating with a standard uranium oxide fuel with 19% enrichment was good enough to be competitive. At an on-grid market, like the UK or Sweden, an oxide fuel will not perform well enough to be competitive. It’s very difficult to achieve a breeding ratio equal to one in a lead-cooled reactor. Control rods must be introduced to regulate reactivity, causing the core to be much larger. A high density fuel is used to make the reactor more compact to achieve the breeding ratio equal to one. This allows the same fuel to be used for over 20 years. The reactor LeadCold designed for the UK has a thermal output of 140 MW, with an electrical power output of 55 MW. The vessel is 5.5 meter in diameter, compared to a 17-20 meter diameter vessel needed in a water reactor to achieve the same safety level. The plant operates with a traditional Rankine cycle.

(27:23-37:45) Commercializing a New Reactor Reactor Design
(Janne provides an inside look into the process of commercializing a new reactor design and how he plans to bring it to market)

Q: What are the next steps in terms of product creation after you work through the materials issues?
A: Janne Wallenius and his company, LeadCold, have done different conceptual reactor designs. After material issues are resolved, the next step is to build an electrically-heated mockup which can show that the pumps and oxygen control work in an integrated environment. On the engineering side, Janne needs to find the funding to build up an engineering team to complete all the detailed fluid dynamics calculations required to put together a licensing application. Janne has worked with both the Canadian and UK regulators. The Canadian regulator is very agile and has a well-established system for licensing advanced reactors. The shortest time to build a demonstration unit would be in Canada. However, there may be more opportunities in the UK for sites to build a demonstration reactor due to all the former sites that still hold a reactor license and are very suitable. Any novel reactor design needs to be reviewed more carefully than an established design. The designer must be better in mastering all the integrated details of the concept, because the regulator will normally be less experienced. Documentation and technical evidence can make the regulator comfortable that the technology will work. This requires the engineers to be very detailed in the whole process, both on the engineering side and in written documentation. The regulator is not only protecting the public, but also the operators at the reactor. Each of the 200 systems in the plant must be described at a level that makes the regulator comfortable. Janne hopes the reactors can be built in an automated factory as much as reasonable to allow the reactor operators to order a reactor and get it delivered in 24 months. This allows a completely different relationship between the utility and the vendor. This allows a much larger range of power utilities to become nuclear power plant operators. Nuclear power plays a necessary part in combating climate change so these reactors must be rolled out at a fast pace. A minimum goal would be to produce one-third of the world’s electricity with nuclear power before the year 2050.

The Financial Side of Exploration and Mining (0:00-8:45)
(Canon Bryan explores his introduction to the natural resources industry and how it led him to a
finance career in mining)
Q: Tell me about your background coming from the financial perspective.
A: Canon Bryan’s career started in the finance industry in Canada, a largely natural resource
driven economy when he first entered the sector twenty-five years ago. Canon hails from
Vancouver, British Columbia, where he attended business school at the University of British
Columbia. Nuclear power is banned in the province of B.C., but not in the country of Canada. In
the mid-1990’s, Canon started out as a floor trader, then got into the financial sector focused on
natural resources, specifically mining. At this time, there were about four publicly traded
companies in the world related to nuclear power. The sector was typically government-owned or
privately owned. Canon’s father, who was a stock broker at the time, bought nuclear stocks and
put them in his client’s portfolios. There was no such thing as trading uranium; all contracts were
done by appointment and the details were never disclosed publicly, making it a very private
industry. Canon started working for a gold mining company who operated an intermediate size
mine and was asked to come up for acquisition target ideas. During this time, Canon identified
his interest of choice and went back to school to pursue his business degree part-time while he
continued to work. He had a job opportunity waiting for him after graduation to become a
principal in a newly-founded company which would be financed and be taken public. This
company happened to be a uranium mining company. The price of uranium at this time, in 2004,
was $16 per pound and less than 20 publicly traded companies were involved in uranium
exploration or mining.
A Big Break in Uranium Mining (8:45-18:16)
(How global industrialization led to a financial boom in the uranium mining sector)
Q: Are uranium companies typically involved in either exploration or mining, or both?
A: The tiered system of the uranium mining industry starts out with basic exploration. Once
something is found, a deposit is developed and a feasibility analysis completed. If it is a feasible
source, a mine can be built and go into operations. Sometimes a single company can do the

entire continuum of the process, but oftentimes a smaller exploration company will make a
discovery and a larger company might scoop them up. The company that Canon Bryan built,
Uranium Energy Corp (UEC), started from zero and started acquiring great projects and great
people. A project could be anything from a piece of land that has never been looked at up to
and including an operating mine. Sometimes a radiometric analysis performed by government
fly-overs is used to see where the radioactive signatures are concentrated. These records are
publicly available for anyone to look at and sometimes geologists start researching. In Canon’s
case, a lot of work was done by the oil industry in the 1960’s and 1970’s. At this time, oil
companies were investing millions of dollars into uranium exploration. After Three Mile Island,
the oil industry lost a lot of money, got out of uranium, and has never gone back. UEC’s
signature project was a mine in Texas that was a Brownsfields project. It had a lot of
infrastructure and a deposit that was very well defined. UEC raised $100 million, listed on the
New York Stock Exchange in 2004, and in the 27 months from becoming incorporated, the price
of uranium went up from $16 per pound to $136 per pound. This rise was primarily driven by
Asian industrialization in the early 2000’s, with the nuclear industry lagging behind other
industries. UEC’s investors did very well, but shortly after the global economic crisis happened,
followed by Fukushima, bringing the uranium industry to a halt. The level of capital influx into
this sector has been very low since 2011 and there is no strong signal that it will improve in the
foreseeable future. If the world builds thousands of new reactors around the world, that demand
pressure could cause the price of uranium to increase. However, there is a lot of stockpile
material sitting around and new reactor systems designs are more fuel efficient and bring the
promise of fuel recycling. Sometime in the next decade, it could become economical to
realistically mine uranium from the ocean, a focus of the Department of Energy.
Financial Opportunity in the Nuclear Industry (18:16-28:51)
(Canon maps out his five year path to discovering a new economical nuclear technology: molten
salt reactors)
Q: What came next for you after your endeavor into uranium mining?
A: Uranium was an opportunity for Canon Bryan to get a foot in the energy sector, which was a
new area for Canon. He found himself doing a top-down analysis of all global industry and had
an opportunity to invest in whatever looked good after his success with Uranium Energy Corp.
Three industries made sense to Canon for investment: energy, food, and water. He was very
interested in nuclear and got excited about the infinite journey into knowledge about the
industry. Canon felt that the challenges surrounding nuclear power were solvable and
surmountable, yet unwarranted. After Fukushima, nuclear power was very unfairly viewed in the
world, representing a market anomaly or arbitrage opportunity. Making money in the stock
market is about finding a delay in information, the gap between what is and what it should be.
Canon felt the nuclear industry held a massive opportunity from an economic point of view.
What is known about nuclear has to catch up with what is nuclear power. When the gap closes,
the economic rewards will be distributed accordingly. Canon spent a lot of years investing his
own capital and conducting a five-year, global investigation seeking out technologies that could
possibly be commercial and could be a non-incremental innovation in nuclear. This exercise
took place between 2007 and 2012. During this time, Canon learned about the industry and

taught himself some nuclear science utilizing the entire MIT curriculum which was available
online for free. After his investigation, Canon felt discouraged that he was not going to be
successful in his quest. Following Fukushima, he considered leaving the industry forever since
he could not find an investment that was meeting his criteria. The thing that caused him to
ultimately find the technology that eventually became Terrestrial Energy was a nuclear
technology conference, the Thorium Energy Alliance Conference. Canon met David LeBlanc,
the inventor of Integral Molten Salt Reactors, and Simon Irish, the CEO of Terrestrial Energy,
during this conference in Chicago and both are now central to Canon’s professional life.
Economical Impact of Molten Salt Reactors (28:51-38:45)
(A look at the economic viability of molten salt reactors as a competitor to natural gas power
plants across the globe)
Q: What was it about the Integral Molten Salt Reactors that was so compelling it made you
change your mind?
A: At the time, the design for molten salt reactors was conceptual and was nowhere near the
level of engineering it is at now. Canon Bryan saw elegance in the simplicity of the reactor
design with so few parts. The obviation of so much clutter in a traditional nuclear power plant hit
Canon so hard that the cost base must absolutely be lower. When the company was started, the
first thing completed was the preconceptual design, which was vetted by Oak Ridge National
Labs. After a conceptual design was finished, basic engineering followed and now the company
is coming to the conclusion of the pre-licensing process in Canada with the first major
engineering package. Canon is more and more certain every day that the technology will enjoy
commercialization. Natural gas is a tough opponent in North America because the Terrestrial
Energy power plant envisages one or more 200 MW reactors. This liquid fuel system operates
naturally at high temperatures in a natural convection system inside the reactor. The
commercial aspiration of the company is to deliver a product to the global energy industry which
is a nuclear power plant that can be built and licensed for under $1 billion. This value is
psychologically important for the world of energy and the world of finance, specifically the
investment community that will fund the projects. China and Korea can build plants cheaper
relative to the rest of the energy industry. This design could provide life cycle costs competitive
with natural gas as well, with the toughest competition being in North America. If the technology
could be cost competitive with gas, it could be the killer app of energy globally, which is very
enticing for investors. The opportunity for clean energy deployment in the next 20 to 30 years is
almost inconceivable, but there are a lot of people in the world that don’t understand the scope
of the problem or the opportunity. The level of clean energy needed to be deployed is immense.
There need to be a lot of different, economic, and cost-competitive solutions. Terrestrial Energy
is well-positioned to participate in that deployment with a product that is economically or
superior to the fossil fuel alternatives.

Introduction (0:15)
0:15-7:20 (Leslie discusses her first introduction to nuclear energy and major projects in the industry)
Q: Can you please introduce yourself?
A: Leslie Kass is the Executive Vice President of the Technical center at TC Energy, working to make sure TC Energy is a learning organization. She also sits on the board of Bruce nuclear power plant, which TC energy is a joint investor.

Leslie’s first job role out of school was working with a company that did failure analysis and programmatic work for engineering projects related to nuclear power plants,in the early 90s, she became a project manager in the nuclear power division of the company and has spent several years of her career focused on nuclear since.

Leslie was at the Nuclear Energy Institute NEI) when the nuclear energy industry seemed to be at its busiest, dealing with over 30 applications for new nuclear plants and responding to the Fukushima accident where she says the entire nuclear industry had a responsibility to respond as a team.

About the Bruce power plant (4:10)

The Bruce power plant is the largest nuclear facility in the world, located in Ontario, Canada. It generates over 600 megawatts of electricity in a year, providing 30% of the power consumed in Ontario while being 30% cheaper than other options. Bruce power recently began a refurbishment program for the critical reactor components, which will see it remain operational till the 2064 timeframe.

Bruce power also creates jobs and opportunities, contributing over 4000 jobs to the local community and getting 90% of its required goods and services from the Ontario area, while also supporting initiatives like its medical isotopes program.

The role of communication and community engagement in the nuclear industry (7:45)

7:45-14:25 (Leslie shares what she has learnt about communication throughout her career).

Q: How important is communication to the work that TC Energy is doing in the nuclear industry?

A: Leslie believes now is the best time for energy companies to embrace effective communication strategies for the public and the local communities that they work in, taking an active role in telling the story of how they as the nuclear industry are adding value to the economy and providing clean-carbon free energy.

Leslie states that Bruce power is a good example of earned good will with the residents of Ontario through a lot of hard work in communication. Educating on other applications of nuclear technology also plays a large role in making the public accept nuclear power, not just as an energy source but as part of the community.

There is no substitute for base load power (14:50)

14:50-18:08 (Leslie discusses the important role of nuclear in the future of energy generation)

Q: What will be the importance of nuclear energy to future energy generation?

A: Leslie believes that nuclear energy will remain an important part of the energy mix for many years to come, as nuclear is one of the most viable options for baseload capacity while generating zero emissions.

Although economically other energy options have the edge, policy implementations like a possible carbon tax and advancement in technology could see the gap reduced drastically in the coming years.

As for the pace of change, Leslie believes that economics will be the primary driving factor to which technologies ultimately get implemented and how quickly money is put into research and development to accelerate the time to market of those new technologies.

Exciting developments in the nuclear industry (17:10)

The recent rise of startups and investments in the nuclear industry has given Leslie the most hope, despite more nuclear reactor closures and less construction of new projects.

The need and long history of collaboration in the nuclear industry (19:00)

19:00-29:01 (Strong need for collaboration in the nuclear industry and growth potential for new technologies in developing countries)

Q: How important has collaboration been for the nuclear industry?

A: Leslie recalls her time spent at NEI during the Fukushima accident and the crisis control she was part of managing, the responsibility of communicating and getting real facts out to a panicking public is particularly difficult but with strong collaboration between companies and individuals in the industry it was made possible.

Collaboration is still an essential factor that Leslie values about the industry, even though stopping false information from circulating is still something that is being dealt with today.
Leslie rounded off her point this way - ‘It’s everybody together or no one survives’.

Optimism for the nuclear industry growth in developing countries (26:33)

With the current developments in nuclear technology, Leslie is optimistic that the industry can expand into rapidly developing countries that are going to have much higher demand for energy in the coming years than already developed countries.

1) 0:24 - How Suzanne went from politics to energy

Suzanne talks about her start in politics where she initially was doing communications for fossil fuels before her boss encouraged her to to help the company out with the government interactions. She developed a network among politicians in Indiana. After working in government affairs, she saw how state legislatures can impact local businesses. In an effort to keep Indiana friendly to business, she ran for state Senate, and while she didn’t win - the experience opened a lot of doors for her in politics. She then found herself running the presidential campaign for Carly Fiorina for Indiana, and eventually was running the primary campaign for President Trump in Indiana. When the election ended, this gave her the opportunity to work in Washington, D.C. and she was able to get a career working in the Department of Energy which she felt compelled to work for because she knew how important energy was to “freedom and prosperity.”

2) 6:08 - How the Indiana’s economics and energy affected each other:

While working on presidential campaigns, Suzanne dealt directly with many people working in the energy industry and developed a new appreciation for how important their contributions are. She saw how the electricity generated in Indiana was so much more abundant and affordable than it was in other states and as a result - she saw directly how that allowed businesses in Indiana to thrive and have a far greater productivity. And when she was working in Washington, D.C. Secretary Perry directed her to help “make nuclear cool again.” In order to do that, this required a paradigm shift and education to the public at large. As such, Suzanne helped develop a coalition of advocates, scientists and experts across the field and realized that nuclear is critical to a clean energy future. Suzanne also recognized the intersection between modern technology and nuclear and how they came together at “the right time.”

9:55 - 3) Bringing energy security to the U.S. and around the world

Suzanne talks about how energy security can help give countries freedom from being affected by politics and global events. She recognizes that much of our energy is a product that has to be transported. While in the United States we’ve not worried about energy for a while, it wasn’t long ago that we did have a fuel crisis. To her, energy security means you don’t have to worry about where your energy is coming from, and that no other nation can cut off our energy. The United States has been sheltered from these kinds of threats to our energy because of our own innovations in the energy sector and Suzanne wants the United States to extend their energy security to other nations because she sees that as a critical factor in helping other nations strengthen their democracy.

4) What is the best way to help provide energy security? 13:00

The best way to provide energy independence is through innovation, technology, and a reasonable regulatory environment. Suzanne talks about how the right amount of regulation doesn’t stifle innovation and allows the necessary flexibility to develop these steps forward and how the current administration is about easing regulations. And she recognizes that nuclear is the only source of energy today that meets all the criteria for a clean energy future. Bret and Suzanne discuss how nuclear is a fuel source that can last for years and remove the insecurity of relying on daily or weekly deliveries from other sources. Suzanna talks about the Auroa reactor and how that uses spent fuel, further increasing the efficiency, and how there are other nuclear plants that are eliminating the risk of meltdowns. The Department of Defense is also developing mobile nuclear reactors.

5) 16:47 - What is the Department of Energy doing to help communicate about nuclear energy?

Suzanne talks about IFNEC a 65 country government to government network composed of experts all over the industry. The goal of IFNEC is to work together to advance the positive benefits of nuclear energy and Suzanne is the Senior Advisor of Policy and Communications for IFNEC. IFNEC is a global organization but has recently hosted a major gathering in order to reinforce the United States commitment and focus on nuclear as a viable energy source.

6) 20:40 - Where is nuclear in 15 years?

Suzanne predicts that the industry will look very different than today - the stigma around nuclear will be gone because the younger generation doesn’t resist it as much. She also has faith in younger generation and their interest in learning about that technology and how it can help enhance the environment and provide clean solutions. The technology will also be very different - there will be a different focus on smaller and more efficient to develop, deploy and finance. It will be cheaper, more affordable, and more reliable than ever before.

Over 35 years and counting in the nuclear industry (0:54)
0:54-3:00 (Steve discusses his long career that covers the US Navy, nuclear power sector, and consulting)
Q: Can you please introduce yourself?
A: Steve Nesbit is the president of LMNT consulting, and prior to starting out his consultancy, he spent 35 years working with Duke Energy in multiple job roles. His first introduction to nuclear came as a student at the University of Virginia, where he completed his bachelor’s and master’s degree in nuclear engineering.
Steve initially planned to serve in the nuclear navy, but after spending some time as a midshipman, Steve decided the submarine job wasn’t his ‘cup of tea’ and moved on to work in the civilian nuclear power industry.
Steve’s final job role at Duke Energy was as the director of nuclear policy and support. He was responsible for developing company policy positions related to nuclear power, and interacting with industry and government groups on used fuel management and related issues. This role also saw him frequently interact with several environmental and anti-nuclear groups.
The end of the nuclear resonance (3:00)
3:00-4:30 (Steve describes the periods after 2009 that hit nuclear energy the hardest)
2009, a period that Steve says many still regard as the peak of nuclear energy in the USA, Duke Energy (Steve’s former employer) had planned projects to build new nuclear plants but signs of caution and a slowdown was already being noticed due to economic reasons, an overall reduced demand for electricity, and cheap natural gas.
Then there was the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster in 2011, which was a huge blow to the expansion of nuclear power and led to the distrust of nuclear power by the general public. Steve remains excited for the future of nuclear energy, pointing to advancements in technology with SMRs (Small Modular Reactors), advanced reactors, and non-electricity producing reactors.

Nuclear back in focus (6:35)
6:35-9:30 (The role of climate change, carbon emissions, and other factors in bring nuclear back into the conversation)
Q: What are the primary drivers in the renewed interest in nuclear energy?
A: Steve mentions that some environmental groups like Clean Air Task Force and Third Way had seen the potential of nuclear power to provide clean energy as a remedy to climate change, long before the utility industry stepped into the conversation. This dramatic change in approach by utilities and power generators has made them recognize the unique ability of nuclear energy to help meet commitments of reduced CO2 emissions.
New technologies and new energy from young people are other factors that Steve points to as major drivers in nuclear energy attracting attention and funding. Steve also recognizes the role the NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Commission) plays in revamping its regulatory structure for new nuclear plants with advanced reactors.
Yucca Mountain, the MOX fuel project, and run-ins with anti-nuclear protesters (9:45)
9:45-22:44 (Steve runs through the projects he worked on while at duke energy that had the most impact on himself and his career.)
Q: What major projects did you work on at Duke Energy?
A: Steve led Duke Energy’s efforts related to the use of mixed oxide (MOX) fuel in its nuclear power reactors as a part of the Department of Energy project to dispose of surplus plutonium from nuclear weapons. Steve remains proud of his involvement in the project, even though it ultimately stalled and didn’t reach a favorable conclusion. Towards the end of the cold war the National Academy of Science did a study in 1994 and recommended things that could be done with surplus high enriched uranium and plutonium. This study led to the MOX fuel project using surplus plutonium, which is not as easily converted to nuclear fuel as uranium but can be done and has been done in France, Germany, Switzerland and a few other European countries. The MOX fuel project ran from 1999 to 2008, with Steve serving as the project manager representing Duke Energy.
This project led to a few run-ins with anti-nuclear groups including Green Peace between 1996 and 2005, which were deeply opposed to the project, even though the main aim was to get rid of nuclear weapon materials. Steve sees the environmental community as 2 halves, one is theologically opposed to nuclear power and there is not much that can be done to change their stance. The other half are those that understand the need for clean energy and are open to any source of energy that can safely and practically meet those needs.
In addition to the MOX fuel project, Steve worked on other Department of Energy initiatives: the New Production Reactor Project, 1990 to 1992; the Yucca Mountain Spent Nuclear Fuel Disposal Project, 1992 to 1996; and the Centralized Interim Storage Facility Project in 1996.
Steve worked in Nevada for 3 years on the Yucca mountain project, which went on for a few decades before being terminated, alluding the tendency of nuclear projects to run over budget and behind schedule; a trend that Steve says is common in the industry (a day after the recording of the interview the US government cut funding to Yucca Mountain Nuclear Waste Repository).
“Nuclear projects take a while and are expensive…” A cautionary tale that Steve says needs to be remembered in future nuclear projects.
Nuclear energy, a solution to a social justice issue (19:40)
Steve believes nuclear is not the only long term solution to climate change and recounts his time working with Bill Lee, who was the CEO of Duke Energy; a man who Steve describes as a true visionary. Bill looked at nuclear from a global perspective and saw that half of the global population at the time did not have access to electricity, and knew that people would not be satisfied living like that when they know of the incredible benefits of electricity, which is available in abundance to large portions of the world. Because of this, Steve sees this as a social justice responsibility to spread energy access to all parts of the world. The current option is burning of fossil fuels, which has negative effects on the environment and contributes in large parts to climate change. The situation now is that there are other options including renewables that have a large part to play and it is not always realistic to have nuclear plants in some situations but nuclear will have a large role to play in the low carbon future.

Spent fuel management at Duke Energy (22:34)
22:34-31:50 (Steve discusses his time leading the spent fuel management division at Duke)
Q: What were the unique challenges that came with working with the spent fuel division of Duke Energy?
A: “Nobody likes the trash-man, and we were the nuclear trash-men.” These were Steve’s opening words to the question and he says he ‘stumbled’ into the field while at Duke. Steve also describes this as a rewarding and challenging area to be involved in.
When the government cut the Yucca Mountain project, which was meant to be a central location to deposit spent nuclear fuel, this put massive strain on the nuclear industry as an alternative wasn’t in place. This meant companies like Duke had to store their spent fuel for much longer than expected, incurring additional cost in the process.
At the same time John Kessler with the Electric Power Research Institute started up a collaborative group called the Extended Storage Collaboration Project and began researching alternatives to safely store the spent fuel up to decades and centuries, and manage the aging and integrity of the canister that the spent fuel is stored in.
Steve still believes that a long term solution is needed to the issue. When asked to predict how long it’ll take the industry to find a proper solution to the matter, Steve shared a quote from a Danish physicist who came up with the atom model that we use in elementary schools: “Predictions are difficult, particularly when it involves the future” – Niels Bohr

Optimism for the future (34:27)
34:27- (Steve shares what he is most excited about for the future of nuclear energy)
Q: What are you most excited/optimistic about in nuclear energy?
A: Steve points to the different applications of nuclear energy as what makes him the most optimistic for the future of nuclear energy. Moving nuclear away from solely power generation will make the technology more appreciated, with applications like hydrogen generation, steam for industrial applications will go a long way in the push to decarbonize the industrial and transportation sectors.
Small Modular Reactors is another developing technology that Steve looks forward to in the future of nuclear, that and the medical applications of nuclear technology.

Edouard’s background (0:01)
Q: How did you get into nuclear field?
Edouard started from studying theoretical physics and continued with nuclear engineering to work on application of physics in electricity production. Due to his strong interest in research, he was hired by CEA – France’s Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission and became a research engineer.
CEA (3:00)
Q: What is CEA and what were you doing there at the beginning?
CEA was created after WWII by general de Gaulle as an institution responsible for delivering nuclear capacity to France. Big French nuclear companies, like Areva Group originate from CEA. The commission covers both fundamental and applied science. Edouard started his career in the group designing exotic nuclear systems which worked on, among others, magnetohydrodynamics coupled with neutronics, space systems for nuclear propulsion as well as fast reactors. First, he focused on core design of PWRs, which was a great entry into his career.
Sodium Fast Reactor development and ASTRID project (8:06)
Q: After that you were engaged in the fast reactor project. What was it about?
Edouard moved to the fast reactor program, which was launched by recommendation of the president Jacques Chirac and was sometimes called ‘chiractor’. Finally, ASTRID (Advanced Sodium Technological Reactor for Industrial Demonstration) program was created. Fast reactor program gave a space to perform developments in the simulation field, using artificial intelligence to extend the code and optimize the process of design. The large amount of data required clever management, which was also a challenge to researchers’ expertise. The beauty of this job were versatility and multiple possibilities of skills development. Nowadays engineers are designing the reactor concepts and hand it over to the machine to explore all options for design process.
ASTRID design process (16:50)
Q: What changed in the framework of the project after ASTRID was officialized?
Soon after ASTRID was launched, Edouard moved from process development to the project phase of ASTRID. He was piloting all the partners of the project in terms of the development of components for nuclear island. He enjoyed a lot international cooperation. ASTRID is 600MWe reactor consisting of pool of sodium with an exchanger to extract heat. He was in charge of designing safety systems for the secondary circuit of the plant as well as core catcher and reactor pit. Originally, ASTRID was a quite large reactor, which later developed into SMR-size project. Thanks to the last phase of a project Edouard learned to make a project come into life. He was amazed by the power of his engineers who were able to redesign the reactor into a smaller one in only 2 years. He thinks the project was sufficiently compact and optimized in terms of cost that ASTRID could have made an impact on nuclear industry. However, even if the engineering skills in this project were developed, they may not be fully transferred globally.
Intellectual property and communication after closing of ASTRID program (26:10)
Q: But it doesn’t need to be this way. What if I wanted to buy all this data and open a company ?
Even if somebody wanted to buy the project for further development, the obstacle is always the intellectual property. Sometimes, if some country is investing in a project, the IP rights are lost to the creator. It is complex to bring outside money and to keep IP rights. Finally at the end of 2019 the project was abandoned. Several papers announced it showing the decision in negative light, saying that the government wasted money. ASTRID was a project for the future, and maybe it was a lot of money, but in comparison of French budget is not so much. The investment was not so big for the national scale, so it’s not clear what was the communicate from the side of government.
Public communication (29:18)
Q: How should such a high-visibility project have been communicated ?
ASTRID did not communicate enough about all the benefits of development of this reactor, not knowing if people are ready for this so soon after Fukushima. However, direct communication is not the first issue, communication about energy is. Edouard was engaged in network of young professionals, European Nuclear Society - Young Generation Network and it’s French part - SFEN. One of the projects he realized was educating young students. He was struck by the level of education of the kids and also the teachers in terms of nuclear and energy in general. Media do not help in education of people. What he was working on, was micro communication for several dozens of people at once, but the true impact through is entering mass media.
European Nuclear Society Young Generation Network (35:14)
Q: So you realized you wanted to do something more than only being a professional, what were your tasks in ENS?
Edouard realized that he wanted to be more engaged in nuclear than only on professional level. He entered the Nuclear Society – young professional network is a good space to meet other people interested in nuclear. He became a chairman of ENS and had a chance to take part in COP conference. He thinks that the power of youth is amazing – the perception of interlocutors is much different then when facing youth than when speaking to older professionals.
Edouard admits that identifying with nuclear is scary - some people just want profession, some want also identity. The problem is that engaged nuclear engineers have to be also aware of the mistakes of nuclear industry and keep on explaining fundamentals. Sometimes nuclear professionals are being identified with the mistakes of nuclear industry and they are not ready for this. However, joining a society creates a team spirit, which is helpful.
Jules Horowitz reactor (40:57)
Q: You changed from doing these “exotic” projects into a down-to-earth one – Jules Horowitz Reactor...
Edouard wanted to build something that was using the exotic principles that he was studying for the past years, so he’s moved to the realization of research reactor, which is even more practical than ASTRID and also exciting. The reactor is a great riddle for him, being small and having safety constraints, used for multiple experiments like material aging, but also radioisotope production. JHR is a very ambitious project, the target is to make it work.
New nuclear (43:31)
Q: You said that maybe we’re listening to much to the physicists when designing reactors. How is it with new nuclear projects?
The current status of nuclear projects reflects the loss of the technical skills and the loss of big project management skills. Edouard’s view after having all his experiences is that all these constraints come from skill loss and high level of specification in nuclear. We over specify instead of looking back and checking if we really need it. The reactor lasts very long and it’s good for the operator, but this vision of reactor is not related to the engineering cycle, in this respect we should adapt more to the mainstream industry. Currently, conventional industry would be scared to take over a nuclear project. An idea that could be implemented in countries having large nuclear industry like France is having small projects all the time not to lose skills between the consecutive investments. SMR projects are great for this and pop up all around the world, in France it only came recently.
Future of nuclear (50:33)
Q: What is exciting for you in the nearest future?
We need to change perception of nuclear and communicate its role among people. Another path to follow is to refresh our old tools used for design, e.g. codification. Nuclear has special codes, like ASME, describing how to mechanically design a component. These codes are up to 50 years old and very outdated. We have an amazing database now, we should reinterpret the codification system as it’s too stiff, we are the prisoners of the codification. The codes are a pile of paper with tables and references, we could make it more interactive, but the challenge is to make the most of the code, create new rules which are more adapted to the current market. It could help to prove that on-the-shelf components are sufficient for nuclear industry. The industry could better understand us and then nuclear would not be so expensive.

Sweden's first 100% nuclear electricity provider

Growing up in Sweden and early introduction to the Nuclear industry (0:33)
0:33-5:24 (John talks about life in Sweden, introduces himself and Karnfull Energy.)

Q: Can you please introduce yourself?

A: John Ahlberg is the co-founder of Karnfull Energy, Sweden’s first 100% nuclear electricity provider. The company began in August of 2019 and has gained a lot of media attention since.

John was born in 1982 into a family of engineers but decided to take a different career path in marketing and communications. John describes himself as an early adopter of new technologies and ideas, always trying to explain difficult things in the best possible way. Leaving Sweden at 22 years old, John moved to Japan to continue his studies, he later moved to London to work in the Swedish Chamber of Commerce. After his time in London, John moved on to work in a Fintech company as the Communications manager. A role which later saw him move to France and complete 10 years in the Fintech and Digital Security space.

Starting Karnfull Energy with Co-Founder Christian (5:24)
5:24-17:00 (Moving from a career in communications to co-founding a startup)

Q: How did you move into the Nuclear Industry and when did you first have the idea for Karnfull?

A: John’s father studied Nuclear Engineering, this played a strong role in forming a positive opinion of the nuclear industry from a young age. John recalls his father telling him of the great power plants that were supplying energy to Sweden at the time. it wasn’t until much later that John actively looked into the Nuclear industry once again, stating that it was reading about TerraPower, a nuclear reactor design company founded by Bill Gates, that made him go back to examine the claims his father had made when he was younger.

Initial intrigue turned to a sense of urgency after reading the IPCC report of the impact of climate change, and since then Nuclear has been a clear solution to John in achieving our energy and climate goals. John pitched the idea of starting a 100% nuclear electricity provider in Sweden to his friend and now co-founder, Christian, even though companies already existed that offered electricity from 100% renewable energy sources like wind and solar.

At the time, both John and Christian had no prior experience in the nuclear energy or utility industry. Instead, they relied on their drive to learn, with John praising his co-founder for committing himself to acquiring relevant knowledge for the task and cleverly leveraging on the professional networks they had managed to establish over the years.

Shaping public discourse on Nuclear Energy in Sweden (17:00)
17:00-29:20 (Karnfull contributions to shaping the public conversation about nuclear in Sweden.)

Q: What is the public opinion towards nuclear energy in Sweden? And how is Karnfull Energy adding to the discourse?

A: The Swedish government committed to transitioning the national grid to 100% renewables, and even though Sweden is one of the leading nuclear nations in the world, the government still plans to close down existing nuclear plants without replacing them. A plan that John expresses concern over, using Germany as an example of a nation that has turned to fossil fuels as a backup for its’ intermittent renewable (wind and solar) energy systems.

John and his team saw this a good opportunity to start a campaign to spread information to the public about nuclear energy, and their starting point? Convincing their spouses and family members who held anti-nuclear beliefs.

This exercise became the foundation of how they modeled the way they spoke about nuclear, explaining the facts in an interesting manner and with reliable sources. Another initiative Karnfull energy has started making donations for every kWh, which is allocated towards nuclear science and research. This campaign has helped people in Sweden actively learn and contribute to the growth of the nuclear industry.

Another initiative Karnfull started is setting up an advisory board filled with nuclear industry experts and public figures that have provided publicity and positive associations. One name on the advisory board is Jose Gonzalez (Singer/Songwriter), who has become a strong supporter of the nuclear industry.

The future of Karnfull Energy (29:20)
29:20-39:00 (John discusses the future ambitions for karnfull energy and plans to continue to promote the nuclear industry in Sweden)

Q: What does the future hold for Karnfull Energy?

A: John says that they do their best to keep karnfull away from political issues, and feels the company can benefit more from talking about the benefits that the nuclear industry brings to Sweden and the world at large.

John takes the responsibility of representing the nuclear industry with his company very seriously and sees it as an honor, one that he wants to take full control of and use to the best of his abilities, ultimately working to provide the public enough information about nuclear energy so that regular people can have dinner conversations about nuclear energy without the conversations becoming dogmatized or odd. John acknowledges that this mission could take his whole life, but he is committed and the company will continue on their current part and look to improve operations over 2020 while balancing the pressures that come with running a startup.

Another opportunity Karnfull is looking into is taking over operations of nuclear plants scheduled to be shut down, although this is still ambitious for the current stage of Karnfull, in a few years, it could very well become a strong possibility.

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