TITANS OF NUCLEAR

Sarah Howorth [00:00:57] Welcome to Titans of Nuclear. Today, I'm here with Myrto Tripathi, who is the President and Founder of Voices of Nuclear. Welcome. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:01:06] Thank you very much for having me. It's a great pleasure and a great honor because, Titans of Nuclear... I've been there for a long time. It's a little bit humbling to be invited to a podcast that's called Titans of Nuclear. I'm not sure I feel like a titan quite yet, but hopefully one day. 

Sarah Howorth [00:01:25] Well, we certainly think you are and it's a pleasure to have you on. Let's go ahead and just get started by talking about your background and how you ended up in nuclear. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:01:36] That's a good question and generally rather long story, but I'll try to make it short. When I left school, I very much wanted to change the world and every single piece and bits of it, but couldn't decide if I had to start with the pandas, the hunger, the wars, the sanitations, the gender equality or whatnot. There were way too many issues, so little time. I early on decided that energy was probably the root cause and the root enabler, the greatest enabler, for all of those causes at the same time. And if I could manage to bring energy to people, then not only would they be enabled to achieve all those things, but also they would be enabled to make their own choices without me having to direct what they were doing or not doing. Hence, my first orientation towards energy. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:02:33] Naturally, I found my way to nuclear energy because I'm French and the nuclear energy sector was something pretty important and exciting. Still at the time... I'm talking very early 2000s here, even if the atmosphere, the public opinion around it was not so good. Still then. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:03:01] I worked for 10 years for Areva, the front end of the fuel sample, mining, chemistry enrichment, then fuel manufacturing and design. I was Market Strategy Director for Worldwide Areva, which is now Framatome. And then, I ended my career in 2014 in charge of conducting the negotiating teams for selling the third-generation nuclear power plant, the EPR. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:03:35] And so, I was a salesperson, so to speak, a pretty strategic one, but still a salesperson, until I realized that as an engineer and as a business developer, my role was not so important and not so useful because everything depended on public acceptance. The political decision, the financing, the startup of the projects, everything. And if you didn't have public acceptance, then you didn't have projects. And you could be as smart and dedicated and engaged as you wanted, those power plants would never see the light and you would never bring energy to people while ensuring their environment was preserved and the climate was stabilized. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:04:22] So that's when I left Areva, just prior to the Paris Agreement and the COP 21 and joined the UN Global Compact to mobilize industry, business around the climate negotiations to try to make sure that the solution providers would be part of the organization. I worked for the climate negotiations for three to four years. Then was very, very disappointed by what I found there. I apologize, and I'm sorry to say that. Because I essentially met a lot of people who were really enthusiastic and were doing really great work, but were little interested, or little did they realize that the technologies they were advocating for didn't always work, or not quite yet. And they had a pretty dogmatic approach to all these things. And in particular, nuclear was a complete taboo. Completely absent from anything environmental, climate-related. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:05:29] And it threw me off entirely. I was pretty desperate. It's one I touched for myself, what we now call the famous generation despair toward climate change. I went through that myself for a short period. But I guess that's a question of character. It didn't last very long, and I decided to take it upon myself to start an NGO, a particular NGO to back nuclear and the civil society into the conversation. And making sure... And that was my first mandate... That the contribution of nuclear was clearly and largely recognized as a key contributor to the energy transition worldwide. And I'm happy today because I think I'm at the end of a first season, that mandate, because it's achieved. And what we see today is I think we can say it worked. 

Sarah Howorth [00:06:36] That's amazing. It's so interesting. And how did your background, engineering, sales and going through all of this translate finally into Voices of Nuclear? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:06:47] In many ways, I think, because when you are trained in sales, you learn to understand what your counterpart needs. You try to put yourself in the shoes of the people you're talking to and you actually develop communication skills. And a lot of engineers tend to think that communication is just a side or a secondary skill. I'm quite convinced now that it's not. That engineers, technicians, scientists need to stop despising too much these kinds of communication skills, because it depends on how we communicate to people those technologies that they will choose to adopt them or not. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:07:40] So, you can be an engineer and develop the greatest technology in the world, like nuclear in my mind is, and then it's being rejected, not used and left aside. And what's the point? So technology, it's nothing else but science applied, made and put to work. But then, we need all that effort of convincing and communicating which we put to use. So, you want science to be put to use? Let's do those podcasts you do. Let's get that civil society working. Let's get that communication going. So, I think that helped a lot. That was a very important aspect of things. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:08:20] And the engineering part of your question... I think translating into a thirst for rigor and a lot of expertise, even in something that was communication, NGO, and civil society, you can be dancing with a polar bear in the street while providing very sourced numbers, while being very thorough and rigorous in every claim you make. And I think the combination of the two is what made the successes of Voices. 

Sarah Howorth [00:08:54] Right. So, tell me a little bit more about the current work of Voices and what the mission and vision is there. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:09:03] So, the first objective we gave ourselves when we created the Voices back in 2018 was what I mentioned earlier, achieve the recognition of nuclear energy as a key contributor to the energy transition and the fight against climate change. To do that was a lot of changing the conversation, acting on the messenger in addition to the messaging next to populations. Making sure the balance, risk benefits, was clear in the mind of people so that citizens could make their own decisions while having the right facts in their hands. And that includes trusting the citizens with that choice. And when we realize that people actually do make pretty rational decisions once they're being fed with whatever facts, then they are able to balance out their own interests and to make the decision. But you have that trust in them. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:10:06] And so, there's been a lot of pedagogy. There's been a lot of media, street action, influencing political and decision makers and so on to reach the point where we are today. We are realizing now that... I think with the industry and with the public opinion, we've managed that. We're pretty happy and we consider it a great success and that the job has been done. And now we're embarking on a new journey, hopefully, what I call Season Two of the Voice of Nuclear, which is now to help the projects gain of ground. Because now nuclear is on paper, most of it, and it's strong enough to make sure that those plants start producing that famous low-carbon energy we've been talking about so much. 

Sarah Howorth [00:11:00] Right, absolutely. I picked up a pamphlet from your area earlier today and I was wondering what an energy transition scenario is. I was reading about those in it. And I'm wondering what is the Voices scenario and how is it different? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:11:19] Oh, well, thank you very much for this question. We have indeed produced, in-house... So, I need to remind here that we're only volunteers. So, that's quite a huge effort coming from us. We produced an energy scenario for France, 2050, based on the realization that all the scenarios that were up for debate prior to new decision making at the French and European level on energy mix in our minds were flawed. Were deeply flawed because they were relying on hypotheses that were way too risky and way too wishful thinking for us. And as citizens, what we wanted was to make sure that the energy transition would see the light. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:12:11] And we've seen a lot of relying on innovative technologies that were not very mature, not industrialized. There were no supply chains associated to it. Natural resources consumption.... Of the charts, as if everyone would have more than 100% granted of those resources for their own use while there was a lot of competing uses actually in place. They were relying on levels of sobriety for the populations that are nowhere to be seen when we look around us. They were relying on potential relationships and collaborations between countries in a geopolitical future, close and far, that again, were not so clear. And so, we thought all those were a lot of uncertainties. And we thought that those scenarios would not actually reflect what would be a credible future. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:13:19] So, we made a scenario where first we decided that it would not be a question of more renewables or more nuclear. It would be a question of taking all the low-carbon energies and using them exactly to what they know how to do. You don't sleep on a stool and you don't sit on a bed, but those are different devices for you to rest. So, same thing with the energies. They don't have the same impact on the grid. They don't provide the same services. So, we need to put them exactly where they need to be. We need to have all low-carbon sources. That means nuclear, but that also means hydroelectricity, pump and storage, solar, wind, geothermal. And we need to use them side by side to what they know how to do best. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:14:09] All those were hypotheses that we took, saying we want mature technologies, we want realistic hypotheses and then we will see if it passes or not. Do we manage to succeed? And we do; we do. The very good news is that we made what we call the "no bullshit scenario." Sorry, for my French. And we did the most pessimistic scenario we could imagine and decided we would put progress before innovation. Innovation is great; progress is better. And we would see if we would actually succeed in reaching net zero while providing energy to people. And we do. So, it's a very optimistic result to a pessimistic scenario. 

Sarah Howorth [00:14:59] That's amazing. And let's talk a little bit more too about how Voices communicates with the public. Earlier you mentioned a polar bear dancing in the streets, and if people are familiar with you already, they might know what that means. But what's the symbolism there for people who don't? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:15:17] Well, the polar bear, first, was an idea that did not come from the Voices originally. The pro-nuclear community is a small one, but very diverse and dispersed worldwide. Eric Meyer, who is the head of Generation Atomic that you may know came up first with that idea which we thought was brilliant. And we love good ideas and we love to put our friends forward, so this is why we used it and reused it again. Because it's a great way to communicate to populations that did not associate, nuclear with climate and with the environment that we reclaim those symbols. That the youth can be pro and imagined this to be an old technology because it has very concrete and very clear benefits for its future. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:16:20] And we need to consider that whatever works and actually provided results that we can measure, that we can see, that we can enjoy, is something that we need to push forward and continue. Because nuclear energy is not a technology, it's physics. And you can do millions of things with physics and it can take you forward forever. It's a very enthusiastic way of seeing things. So, using those symbols that mean already a lot to people and explaining to them why it makes sense, why those symbols are naturally also ours, is a great and actually an easy way to get the conversation started. 

Sarah Howorth [00:17:09] Right. That's a great point and a great way to describe it. And some other really interesting things that you all have here is a sticker, for those who are watching on video. It says that "Nuclear is dangerous for fossil fuels." Can you explain that a little bit more as well? 

Myrto Tripathi [00:17:29] So, that's how we try to do things at the Voices, which is to take very simple and straightforward formulations to explain some very rigorous concepts behind it. And the one behind this one is to say that today there is no other form of energy than nuclear that's capable of displacing fossil fuels anywhere at all times. If you take the set of criteria of having low-carbon, small environmental footprint, always available, anywhere geographically energy on the planet, only nuclear answers that set of criteria. And the other energies that answer that set of criteria, but they are very high carbon content, are fossils. So, you cannot degrade, or you will have the hardest time to create the level of service you provide humanity. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:18:43] I mean, humanity has enjoyed a certain level of service thanks to the energy the Industrial Revolution has been able to provide it. And we discovered living long lives, enjoyable lives with leisure, with cultural and intellectual pleasures, with time on our hands to enjoy our children and to raise them and so on, etc., etc. Not go hungry, not be sick... I mean, all of those are very important things, right? So, we're not going to degrade the level of service. And if you don't replace the service of the fossil fuels with rendering humanity by something at least equivalent and why not even better, you're just not going to do it. People are just not going to run with it. And considering we also like all democracies and we also like what the kinds of systems we've achieved and are always making demonstrations that we can take us even further, we have to understand... 

Myrto Tripathi [00:19:48] And I know it's a little bland and I know have been called out a little bit before because of this, but I'm pretty convinced that the path forward is what I call the nuclear scene. Where fossil is essentially going to be replaced by nuclear and the proportion of the world's energy mix will remain with renewables maintaining 20% of the total. And in renewables, of course, that includes hydroelectricity, which is a very important renewable energy. And I exclude biomass, please, because I only want the low-carbon ones. And all the fossils are going to be replaced by some generation, some technology that's nuclear-based. So, I am a nuclear scene advocate because I think that's where the physics of it takes us. 

Sarah Howorth [00:20:49] Yeah, I love that. And as we begin to wrap up, I want to ask you what your vision personally or maybe Voices of Nuclear sees for the nuclear industry 10, 20, or 30 years down the line. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:21:09] That's a good question. Well, I express myself for myself, but maybe also a little bit for the Voices of Nuclear because it draws on the principles we would like to put forward up to now and hopefully in the future. The nuclear industry will have a bright future. There's almost no way around it. It's needed; it's required. There are actually little alternatives. And the fact that there are little alternatives is not bad news, it's a good one, because it's a good technology. It's a good technology with lots of benefits and manageable risks. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:21:47] Now, what I would be more worried about is maybe the next five or ten years. Why? Because the situation towards the world's public opinion, the decision makers, the level of understanding and familiarity of the populations with nuclear is still very fresh. It's still very unstable and fragile. We need to consolidate that a lot and it is going to take time. And I wouldn't want the nuclear industry to become too confident too quick and to start making the mistakes that some other technologies have made to just ride, surfing the waves... That's an expression we have in French. I don't know if you have it in English as well. 

Sarah Howorth [00:22:46] Yeah, it translated.

Myrto Tripathi [00:22:50] Okay. And you enjoy the hype, right? And then, you maybe start making claims that are a little bit too forward and then take the risk of losing the hard-won credibility that nuclear enjoys today. So, coming from people like myself as a volunteer full time, which is a very, very important effort... I've been working for nuclear to regain that credibility, for the industry to regain that credibility and not to be discarded as a non-player. I am asking the nuclear industry to take its responsibility now and to just not forget too quick and run too fast. It is a bright future out there, so no need to be over-optimistic in what we're saying. I think we can just tell the truth. We can be reasonable and cautious because that's already very positive, much better than anything anyone else can propose. And it's already a very, very good value proposition. So, no need to overdo it. Just be who you are. Do what you know how to do, do it well, and it can only go very well. 

Sarah Howorth [00:24:18] That's a great note to end on. Thank you so much, Myrto, for your time and for coming on Titans of Nuclear today.

Myrto Tripathi [00:24:23] Thank you so much, Sarah, for having me. It was a great time. And it's a great setting and situation to have that conversation. Because, yeah, I think we actually did it. So, well done, all of us. 

Sarah Howorth [00:24:39] Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. 

Myrto Tripathi [00:24:41] Thank you.

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Olivia Columbus [00:00:58] We are here today with Grace Stanke, who is currently Miss America and is a very accomplished nuclear engineer. Grace, welcome back to the podcast. 

Grace Stanke [00:01:06] Well, thank you so much. So excited to be back on Titans of Nuclear. I know so many people that listen to it. It's awesome. 

Olivia Columbus [00:01:12] So glad to hear that. You've been on the podcast before and we won't go too deep into the stuff you've already covered, but we just want to quickly have you recap your background and how you got into nuclear. 

Grace Stanke [00:01:23] Yeah, I'm Miss America 2023 right now, so I'm in this position to help advocate for nuclear, right? The unique thing about being Miss America is I'm working with a totally separate demographic from what the nuclear industry typically reaches, which allows for a lot more different conversations to happen in terms of changing public perception. So, that's the main goal of my year as Miss America and advocating. 

Grace Stanke [00:01:44] How I got into nuclear overall... I'm still a student right now. I'm in my last semester of school to graduate. But I got into it out of spite. My dad told me not to go into it. And as a 16-year-old teenage girl, your first instinct when your dad tells you not to do something is to go and do it, and that's what got me into it. 

Grace Stanke [00:01:59] But what I say is, what kept me in it is the fact that I learned that this industry literally has the ability to change the world. It has the ability to cure cancer. It has the ability to create clean, reliable energy for Americans to use and people all over the globe to use. And I just kept learning about it. I'm like, "Why are more people excited about this? Why aren't more people dreaming about nuclear?"

Olivia Columbus [00:02:18] Yeah, absolutely. I think this week here at WNE, we've just constantly heard the concept reiterated of "energy access is so critical." Clean energy, energy security... Those are all important aspects, but really, providing energy for those who don't have it is so critical, and nuclear is the best and most sustainable way to do that. 

Grace Stanke [00:02:37] Exactly, exactly. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:39] So, when you set out as Miss America, what were some of the goals that you set for yourself in terms of educating folks about nuclear? 

Grace Stanke [00:02:47]  It's so interesting to think back about where I was about 11.5 months ago after becoming Miss America, right? My main goals were really... I set some parameters of what I wanted to achieve as Miss America with wanting to interact with "X" amount of people. I wanted to travel to... I believe I had five different countries. Because I believe that the United States of America is a superpower, right? I think Miss America should have the ability to represent the United States as well, which I've been able to do that. 

Grace Stanke [00:03:12] The United States Department of Energy invited me as the honorary delegate to attend the International Atomic Energy Agency General Conference. Which I was sitting there and I'm like, "Oh my God, what did I get myself into?" But it was so cool because what I've realized that I've been able to achieve this year is to make sure that youth have a voice and young women have a voice at the table. 

Grace Stanke [00:03:32] As I sit in these international conferences and look at who's making the decisions, I realize that the people who are making these decisions aren't going to be around to run the plants when they're fully constructed, right? There's just a certain reality of that. So, it's been really incredible to make sure that young people still are heard, still are valued, and still are being considered in this equation when we're looking forward to years like 2050 and 2060 when we set these carbon goals. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:55] Absolutely. And I hear you'll be attending the COP conference next week? 

Grace Stanke [00:03:57] Yeah, so I have to go back to the States and then I go back to Dubai. So, I'm like all over the place, but I'll be at COP, yes. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:03] That's very exciting. And it's so exciting to see nuclear featured at COP this year. I know that's something that hasn't had as much of a voice as it should have in years past, but this year with COP being hosted in the United Arab Emirates, which is a nuclear country, it's so great to see that. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:20] Think back to the last year. Is there anything that really stands out? Any example of when you sort of shared your story of why nuclear energy is this incredible, incredible tool? Is there something that sticks out to you as a moment where you felt like your impact was really being felt by an individual or a group? 

Grace Stanke [00:04:37] Well, I want to share a story about... Actually, a social media post that I made. Because social media is something anybody can do. And I want to emphasize that for the listeners. This is not something that's specific to me, because I know the listeners can do this too, right? 

Grace Stanke [00:04:50] I made a social media post about cooling towers and about how it's water vapor and it's not radioactive material coming out of the top of that. Which is something that I feel like in the nuclear industry, we're like, "Okay, yep, we've been over this." Well, that video has already gotten over 5 million... I think it's at 5 million views; I'd have to double check. It's like either 4.8 million or 5 million. 

Grace Stanke [00:05:10] And the thing is that there was tons of engagement on the post. The candid discussions that happened in that comment section, the amount of DMs that I got of people saying, "Hey, I'm thinking about going into a career like nuclear now because of this post or because of this series of posts that have been made. Like, thank you." That's something that... A little bit goes a long ways. And that's true in nuclear. We know a little bit of fuel goes a long ways in terms of producing energy, but a little bit of words and a little bit of action can go a long ways in terms of convincing people as well. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:41] Yeah. And so much of the fear around nuclear comes from misconceptions. 

Grace Stanke [00:05:45] Exactly. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:46] So, the more that we can correct those misconceptions... I think, obviously there are always going to be people who are emotionally driven against nuclear and it's not always easy to change those emotions, but if you can just change folks' misperceptions and educate them on why nuclear is safe, why the waste isn't scary and put it on the same level playing field as other energy sources I think you can do a lot. 

Grace Stanke [00:06:10] Exactly. And that's something anybody can do, really. That ability to educate... We've got this wonderful, wonderful thing called the internet, right? It is there; it's available. I encourage anybody and everybody to be their own advocate. 

Grace Stanke [00:06:22] I know Thanksgiving happened last week, but I've said it since the beginning of my year. In all honesty, start your family Thanksgiving fight. The conversation of changing these misconceptions starts in your own home; it starts in your own circle. You can be the one neutron that starts the chain reaction, if that makes sense, right? You have that conversation with your aunt and your aunt tells her kids. And then, her kids go to school and tell them about how cool this science is that they learned about from their aunt's niece or nephew or whatever it may be. And that's something that is so cool, is everybody has that ability to do that. 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:52] Yeah. And you shared another point that I think is so important to drive home which is this idea that young people need to be engaging and working in nuclear. That is so critical. I mean, this conference has been a great example. There have been students here the last few days. And to see so many young people just even representing their companies has been really exciting. 

Olivia Columbus [00:07:12] They are the future, we are the future. I mean, you and I are there. And I think we're also seeing a younger generation really starting to get excited about nuclear, and that is what is so inspiring to myself and, I think, to a lot of the folks who I work with and who I know in the space. 

Grace Stanke [00:07:33] Yeah. It was really crazy because talking about this and how young people are excited about nuclear... So, I am so used to battling... Not battling, but talking about Chernobyl, talking about Fukushima, talking about spent fuel, and talking about safety. Those are the four topics that I spend most of my time discussing with the general public. That's where concerns lie. That's where concerns exist, which are all completely valid. That is a completely valid concern to have. For someone outside the industry, those look like scary things. 

Grace Stanke [00:08:00] But it was really crazy because I was giving a presentation to middle schoolers in September and I started talking about Fukushima. And let me tell you, I looked at them and they were looking around at each other like, "This lady's on something right now." And I was like, "Oh my God." It hit me. I'm like, "Do you guys even know what Fukushima Daiichi is?" And they don't. 

Grace Stanke [00:08:19] But this is so important to recognize because this allows for us as the current people in the industry to provide that crucial first impression of what nuclear is. We can talk about the whole picture. We can talk about the goods, the bads. We can talk about what it's like to be an employee in nuclear. As long as we're open and honest about it. That's what we need. That's what those middle schoolers wanted. And we sat and talked about nuclear all day long. I had all these like, fuel pellets that were 3D printed. They went insane for those fuel pellets afterwards. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:49] That's so interesting. It is a really interesting concept because nuclear is so simple, really. 

Grace Stanke [00:08:54] It is. Boiling water. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:55] It's something that you should be able to explain to kids. I know we always love to say it's just water passing over a hot rock, right? 

Grace Stanke [00:09:01] Yeah, fancy hot rocks boil water, steam rises, turns a turbine. That's what I use.

Olivia Columbus [00:09:04] Yeah. It should be something that's so simple we can teach the kids, yet it seems so scary and so complicated. And that sort of leads me into my next topic, which is I would really love to talk to you about the impact you specifically feel like you've had on women in nuclear and inspiring young women to become not just nuclear engineers, but work across the nuclear field. I mean, as someone who's not math and science inclined, I think that was really daunting to me. But understanding that there's a role for everyone in this nuclear sector and anyone who's interested in joining it can and should. 

Grace Stanke [00:09:34] Yes. This is something I say a lot in terms of there's a place for everybody here in nuclear. We need technicians, we need engineers, we need managers, we need legal teams. We need literally anybody and everybody on board to make a nuclear power plant run. But when it comes to specifically women... I've had my fair share of sexism. I've had my fair share of bad experiences. That's just the certain reality of it, unfortunately. And I wish change would happen overnight. But the reality is, it won't. However, what I always ask for is...

Grace Stanke [00:10:04] I had an experience this year where someone was offering me a job. And they said, "Grace, we really want you to come work for us. One, because you're a woman." And I went, "Of all of the things you could have said, you chose that to lead with, my biological makeup." And it is so frustrating to me that women are put in this box because we're a nuclear engineer or because we're involved in this industry in some way, shape or form and we're a woman. It's like we're some mythical unicorn. No, we're not. We're human beings. We have so much more to offer. 

Grace Stanke [00:10:32] And that's something that I think I really can represent as Miss America is showing that not only am I a nuclear engineering student, but I'm also Miss America. I'm also a D1 competitive water skier. I'm also a classical violinist. Like, heaven forbid we're humans with personalities and multifaceted hobbies. That's something that I think has been really crucial to this year in terms of highlighting that women just want to be treated like any other human being, right? Not separated, not isolated, not put on a platform either because of our biological makeup. But making sure that we're receiving fair and equal treatment. And in addition, being respected as a human being in a whole picture aspect. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:09] Absolutely. That's absolutely true. I will say it has been really exciting to see more and more women joining this industry. 

Grace Stanke [00:11:16] Oh my gosh. Every time I see one, I'm like, "Ahh, let's go." 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:20] It's really great to see. And I hope it's a trend that we continue to see and we continue to see it grow, especially young women coming out of school and deciding to pursue nuclear. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:29] So, let's talk a little bit about your next venture. You'll be joining Constellation fairly soon. What specifically are you going to be doing there? 

Grace Stanke [00:11:40] So, I finish Miss America January 14th of 2024, and then I'll be starting with Constellation in March of 2024. I will be doing a very new role, which I hope other companies follow suit in this, because I think every company could benefit from a role like this. Primarily, I will be a core design engineer. I just got my degree, so I'm doing the engineering; I want to learn. I want to keep learning about this industry. I want to be at outages and help with that process, all of those things. So, that's about 60% of the role. 

Grace Stanke [00:12:07] But the other 40% is continuing the advocacy work that I've been doing as Miss America. We've seen the impacts of many, many advocacy groups and many companies putting efforts forward on programs to help promote nuclear. Now it's time that we start defining roles surrounding "let's build more nuclear." Let's start supporting nuclear on a public, external-facing front. Not just an internal, nuclear-to-nuclear front. We need nuclear-to-external facing fronts. 

Grace Stanke [00:12:34] And I'm really excited because I've already got events set up with colleges and with eighth-grade girls in Alabama and in Oklahoma. And all of these things starting right away in February and in March. 

Olivia Columbus [00:12:44] That's so exciting. And just to wrap it up... We spoke to you a year ago, you're going to continue your advocacy. What do you hope in one year from now you will have achieved in terms of nuclear advocacy? 

Grace Stanke [00:12:58] The one thing is I do want to see the percentage of women in nuclear increase. I want to see that number go from 14% to like 16%. Because like I said, I know that this change won't happen overnight. I know that it will take time. But I would love to see those numbers start to increase. 

Grace Stanke [00:13:13] Additionally, I want to see ground being broken on building new nuclear. We have done a lot of talking. I have done a lot of talking this year. Let me tell you; let me tell you. 210,000 miles of travel, okay? And I'm at the point where we need to start breaking ground. We need to start building that workforce in terms of construction, making sure we've got qualified construction people working on building these nuclear power plants. And then they can, in turn, maybe potentially work at those power plants in the future. So, those are the main things I want to see within the next year to two years, maybe at the next WNE. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:46] Yes, absolutely. Grace, thank you so much for joining us on Titans. 

Grace Stanke [00:13:49] Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

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Olivia Columbus [00:00:58] We are here today with Cyrille Molina, who is the founder and president of OAKRIDGE SAS. Cyrille, welcome to the podcast. 

Cyrille Molina [00:01:05] Thank you. 

Olivia Columbus [00:01:07] Before we jump into OAKRIDGE and everything that you do there, let's talk a little bit about you. Where are you from? Where did you study and how did you get into nuclear? 

Cyrille Molina [00:01:19] I'm from France. I graduated nuclear engineering in the '80s because I wanted to work in nuclear. Even at that time it was not so obvious because there was almost no future at that time for the nuclear sector. It was very still. For instance, in France, we had just finished installing all the units and there was no more new build program. But still as a physicist, I really wanted to enter that sector by passion. 

Cyrille Molina [00:01:53] And after that, I worked some years at the French Institute for Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety, which is a TSO to the French regulator, as a Assessor of Safety of the Nuclear Fuel Cycle Plants in France. And then, I incepted OAKRIDGE in 2002, so that's more than 20 years now. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:20] Interesting. Is that CEA, is that the nuclear regulator that you were working with? 

Cyrille Molina [00:02:25] In France, that regulator's name is ASN. And its TSO, Technical Support Organization is IRSN. So, I began there. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:36] Interesting. So when you were there, you worked on the fuel cycle; is that correct? 

Cyrille Molina [00:02:39] Yep. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:41] And is there anything from that experience that led you specifically to creating OAKRIDGE? What was the impetus for launching your company? 

Cyrille Molina [00:02:52] Well, one impetus is the company I was in, working for the IRSN, was acquired by a bigger company and the mood was not the same in the big company of the small company I was in. And so, I decided to quit and to found my own company to work by myself as a self-employed person. But then when I started OAKRIDGE, a few months after that some former clients asked me to do more, and so I needed to hire my first employees to face all the work we had to do. 

Cyrille Molina [00:03:35] And just one year after the inception of OAKRIDGE, there was a big announcement, a decision by Finland to start a nuclear project, Olkiluoto in Finland. So, that gave me a push in the business. And we've managed OAKRIDGE to enter the very first panel involved in the engineering of this new build project. And since 2004, we have continuously worked on the EBR new build project; in France, in Finland, in China, and also in the UK. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:19] Interesting. So just to sum up, what exactly does OAKRIDGE do? Where do you focus? 

Cyrille Molina [00:04:25] We are a 100% nuclear consulting company. We do engineering for the install phase and for the new build projects. We intervene at the different phases of the project, like conceptual design, basic design, through design and commissioning. And then when plants operate, we help them to improve their maintenance and safety by giving advice, doing international benchmarking. For instance, helping them to get the best practices in terms of nuclear safety. 

Cyrille Molina [00:05:05] I must add that nuclear safety is our core business and we are very strong at that. Whether it's deterministic safety or probabilistic safety, we have experience and we like to provide this to our clients. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:25] And how large is your team now? 

Cyrille Molina [00:05:26] The team is almost 60 engineers. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:29] Wow. That's very exciting. 

Cyrille Molina [00:05:31] And we work in some countries... So in Europe, in France mainly, but also with South Korea and South Africa. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:41] Very interesting. So just out of curiosity, because I think often times when we hear about your company, people get very confused because there's also a National Lab in the US with the same name. Is there any connection there, or is it just a coincidence? 

Cyrille Molina [00:05:53] No, it has no connection. In fact, Oak Ridge in the US is in two words; Oak Ridge, Tennessee, which is famous for Oak Ridge National Lab. And my company's name is OAKRIDGE, just one word. The fact is, at the time I founded the company, I was looking for a name with my wife. We had a dictionary and turning the pages I saw "Oak Ridge," the Oak Ridge site. And I said, "Oh, this name is excellent, because for the ones who know the history of nuclear, they know that was one of the secret sites of the Manhattan Project. And so, that's a good sound. Let's stick the two words together, register the name in France, and that's it." 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:47] And now you've become so well-known that people confuse the two. Well, I'm glad we clarified that; we now have it on official record. So, you said you guys work on EBR projects. Are there other types of designs that you guys really specialize in or do you sort of work across? 

Cyrille Molina [00:07:06] Yeah, we have a lot of experience with EBR, and more widely with the PWR reactors. But also, we have skilled people in other technologies such as BWR. We now currently are involved in a new project which is a molten salt reactor. We signed yesterday an MoU with Thorizon. 

Olivia Columbus [00:07:31] Oh, congratulations. 

Cyrille Molina [00:07:33] A company from the Netherlands. And they have a concept which is very clever with a molten salt reactor, with some cartridge composing these molten salt reactors. And we'll work with them, of course, in the part which is our main concern which is nuclear safety. 

Olivia Columbus [00:07:53] Got it. Interesting. We had Sander de Groot from Thorizon on yesterday, so if folks haven't listened to that episode yet, they should go over and listen to that one as a Part Two. But that's really exciting. So just out of curiosity, is the French fleet primarily PWRs? 

Cyrille Molina [00:08:10] Yeah, the French fleet is PWRs. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:12] Just PWRs. Okay, interesting. Interesting. 

Cyrille Molina [00:08:14] We have 56 reactors operating currently. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:19] Fifty-six, wow. That's crazy. That's so many; that's very exciting. You mentioned that you guys work... Obviously, you did the project in Finland, in Korea, in South Africa. Is it that you work there, or you have engineers there? 

Cyrille Molina [00:08:35] No, we work with them. Sometimes we will send people to the countries. We had people, for instance, in China for two-and-a-half years during the commissioning of the Taishan Plant. In the past, we had people in South Africa near Koeberg Nuclear Power Plant. Currently, we work a lot for Koeberg Nuclear Power Plant in probability safety and accident simulation. 

Cyrille Molina [00:09:04] One thing I would like to add... You may have noticed that the very first company in France to get the ISO 19443 standard, which is the standard dedicated to nuclear safety, was OAKRIDGE in 2020. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:15] Interesting. That's very interesting. So, you guys do a lot of work on the big builds. You've got an MoU with an SMR company. Are there other SMR directions that you're interested in working on further?

Cyrille Molina [00:09:31] Yeah, sure. We have also begun talks with Canadian companies. And also, we have signed yesterday an MoU with a Polish company. So, we want to join our forces to participate with the numerous projects in nuclear in Poland. Among them, there are big units, but also SMR projects. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:57] Absolutely, I think the Polish program is so interesting. There's such a desire to build nuclear there both big and small. And so, I think they're a great example of a country that's really moving towards increasing their share of nuclear. Having just a research reactor right now, but obviously a strong regulatory body and I'm excited to see what happens there. 

Olivia Columbus [00:10:20] In addition to that, we're excited to see nuclear being featured COP next week in the United Arab Emirates. It's so exciting to have the conference in a country that has been so successful with their nuclear program. I think the Barakah Program is something that we should really all be looking to as a way to successfully develop big nuclear projects. 

Cyrille Molina [00:10:44] Yeah, and actually they achieved this after beginning from scratch. In 2009, when it was decided and signed with the current team, there was nothing there. Now it works; it operates. So, it demonstrates that it's possible just to implement a big project with numerous units in a non-nuclear country. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:17] Right. They took a proven design. They built that exact design. Actually, one of my favorite podcast episodes is when we had His Excellency Mohamed Al Hammadi on and he walked us through, really, the process and how they did it. It was so interesting to hear about how they really took the Korean design, very proven, and really stuck to it. And that was, I think, a huge part of the efficiency in building those new reactors. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:46] I know they said yesterday that the last one, I think, is going online at the beginning of next year. And then, 25% of the UAE's power will be nuclear, which is such a fascinating jump to go from 0% to 25% so quickly. So, very exciting to see nuclear heavily featured at the COP events. 

Olivia Columbus [00:12:06] So to close us out, in the next 10, 20 years, 30 years even, what do you hope the status of nuclear is globally? And as we head into such a critical time in climate energy security, how do you hope nuclear is used as a tool to help solve those challenges? 

Cyrille Molina [00:12:24] I hope that more and more countries and more and more economic players, such as big industries, will adopt nuclear and remove the coal and fossil fuels like gas. We have good assets to get there from this. We have a young generation, which is very invested now, advocating nuclear and trying to gather more forces around them. So, that's a good point. 

Cyrille Molina [00:13:00] And we have also reorganized the industry here in France to be ready for that big change. In fact, for instance, we say that we need in the next decade to hire 100,000 more people in France. And at the European scale that represents 500,000 people more in Newcastle. 

Cyrille Molina [00:13:23] So, for the next decades, I see that Europe is the place that nuclear will expand more. But other countries in Africa and in South America and in Asia will also enter. And newcomers, they will adopt nuclear because now the game is more open. Thanks to the SMRs, you can access a smaller amount of power and you can also find the money to do that project. So, that's really a game changer, the SMRs. 

Olivia Columbus [00:14:06] Absolutely. Well, Cyrille Molina, thank you so much for joining us here on Titans of Nuclear. 

Cyrille Molina [00:14:09] Thank you so much for Titans of Nuclear and congrats for what you do. 

Olivia Columbus [00:14:13] Thank you, thank you.

Olivia Columbus [00:00:57] We're here today with Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee, who is the head of operations at Dual Fluid. Claire, welcome to the podcast. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:01:04] Thank you. 

Olivia Columbus [00:01:04] So, before we jump into Dual Fluid and all the work that you do there, we'd love to learn a little bit about you. Where are you from originally and where has your career gone? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:01:14] I'm originally from France and I studied engineering. First in undergrad, I got an engineering degree from France. You see, I had a little bit of trouble knowing what I wanted to do in life in those days because I was quite good at mathematics, interested in science, but I also wanted to save the world. So actually, I chose an engineering path. And then, I ended up getting a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering from the University of Toronto. And then, I did a little bit of academic research, but then I moved towards management consulting. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:01:53] And so, I lived in Canada for 10 years after my degree. Canada is a really great country, but I really had a longing to come back to Europe. And my husband, being from India, it worked out so well for him. So, we moved to Germany. And then, I was busy with children for some time. I got to work at the Deutsche Bank, in the Economic Department of the Deutsche Bank. And then, I started working more on long-term trends. And then, I moved a little bit with a focus on African countries and also risk. And then, I took a bit of a break. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:02:36] And then by chance, I happened to hear about Dual Fluid. I had had, for a long time, an interest particularly in natural resources and energy. Not a focus, I must say, on nuclear energy, but I was really excited about their projects and wonderful, very promising technology. And that's how I joined Dual Fluid. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:03] Okay, and where is Dual Fluid based out of?

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:03:06] It's officially a Canadian company with headquarters in Vancouver, but most of our activities currently are actually in Germany, in Berlin. We also have some partners in Poland and we are moving gradually towards Africa as well. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:30] Okay, it's very exciting to see a nuclear company operating in Germany, somewhere where we don't see a lot of nuclear right now. And it's really interesting that you came back to nuclear as someone from France, given France's rich nuclear culture. So, let's talk a little bit about Dual Fluid. Can you give us an overview of Dual Fluid's technology? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:03:51] Yes. First, I can just mention that Dual Fluid as a company was created not too long ago, around three years ago, in 2021. But this was following a fairly long period of research, so we didn't start from scratch. 

Olivia Clumbus [00:04:09] Were you guys spun out of a university or a research project in Canada? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:04:12] Actually, a few of the founders knew each other already at the university, so it's mostly German founders. And then, one of them worked in Canada, in Vancouver, the TRIUMF Lab, and that's why one of the founders is also Canadian. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:28] Oh, okay. Got it. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:04:30] Our main technology is a reactor, what we call a dual fluid reactor. It's very innovative in several ways. The main way is that we are using two fluids. So, we are using metallic fuel, liquid, and the coolant is liquid lead. So, this allows us to have a very, very high efficiency. It's fast neutron reactors. So, we are so efficient that we're using most of the density of the uranium. As you know, uranium has a very high density, but most of it is not used in the usual nuclear reactors, so we have the opportunity to be very efficient, which results, of course, in lower costs. So, that very, very briefly describes our technology. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:05:29] We have a couple of reactors in mind. The first one is called the DF-300 with a power of 300 megawatt electric. And a follow-up product will be the DF-1500, as the name says, 1,500 megawatt electrical. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:48] And your fuel comes from recycled fuel, is that correct? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:05:51] Not necessarily, so not at the beginning. But that's... Yeah, this leads me to a third product which we have which is the pyro processing unit, pyrochemical processing unit. It's also a very innovative way of recycling, actually not the used fuel, but also the cladding material and also the downstream waste gas which can also be treated. So, it's a distillation separation process. So, first chlorination and then distillation. And it allows us to separate the long-lived fission products, actinides, from the short-lived ones. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:06:36] So, the first two will be reused, can be reused as fuel. And the rest, of course, it remains, but the problem is tremendously reduced compared to what it is now, because instead of having to store them for thousands or hundreds of thousands of years until the radioactivity reaches acceptable levels, it will be only a few hundred years, and then they will not be more dangerous than natural uranium. So, the first part we can indeed reuse. It's not a must. We can also use, as I mentioned, a mix of uranium and chromium as a fuel, but we can reuse fuel. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:07:21] At the beginning, the DF-300, it will not be as much of the focus, but for the DF-1500, it will be coupled with one of these pyrochemical process unit. And in fact, it will be a closed loop. And we can also use one of these recycling units to treat our spent nuclear fuel and feed it back to also the the DF-300. But in principle, you're right; we can use existing nuclear waste. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:07:49] We have done some calculations, and for instance, the existing nuclear waste in Germany at the moment, we could use it to feed our reactors and this would provide the German population with electricity for about 300 years. 

Olivia Columbus [00:08:08] Wow. Wow, that is fascinating. So, you guys describe yourself as a fifth-generation design. Where are you at in terms of the design for the 300 megawatt reactor? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:08:22] So, we are so much more efficient, which leads to low-cost electricity. We are, of course, clean, as is all nuclear. And we are very safe because our process, this technology, is inherently safe in the sense if temperature increases the fluid expands or the metallic fuel expands and then the reaction slows down dramatically. So, it's inherently safe and it's self-maintained. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:08:53] And we have an additional safety feature, which is a plug that melts when the temperature increases and the fuel by gravity just goes down. And so, basically everything stops. So, it's inherently safe and there's an added safety feature to it. So, that's one aspect. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:09:16] It's also modular. And so, it will lend itself to countries which do not necessarily have much infrastructure…. We are going to start as soon as possible to think of how to produce it in series. We expect to have our first reactors produced in the early 2030s. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:34] Early 2030s, okay. And you guys are just designing the reactor portion of the plant? You're not producing the energy-producing balance of the plant? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:09:45] Yeah, we focus on the reactor and we have already started in small ways to find partners. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:54] And where are you guys looking to deploy your first designs? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:09:58] So at the moment, this technology is still a concept. It's time now that we demonstrate that it works. So, we have defined what we call a critical demonstration experiment. It's a critical assembly demonstration reactor. And we've been thinking for some time what would be the best location for us. We want a location where it can be done relatively quickly. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:10:26] First of all, we are a startup; we cannot afford to have too many years in front of us. And secondly, we're anxious to demonstrate our technology and how it can really help basically solve some big problems that exist at the moment in the world, which is power shortage and also done in a clean way. Because we are not only going to produce electricity... 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:10:53] This is something I haven't mentioned, actually, I forgot. It's a very important feature of our technology. It operates at very high temperatures, which means we can produce electricity, but also directly heat... 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:05] Yes. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:11:05] To produce, for instance, hydrogen and syn fuels. And also, we can provide heat to any industrial process which is needed in the chemical industry to produce cement or glass. So on both fronts, we believe that we can really help decarbonize, for instance, mobility and most industrial processes. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:30] Aviation, absolutely. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:11:32] Yes. And so in the process of finding a location, we looked into Africa, which is a very natural location in terms of power shortages. This is the lowest energy consumption per capita in the world, as you know. And we tried to find the jurisdiction where our technology is supported, and the countries, of course, very open to innovative nuclear technologies. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:11:58] And we found Rwanda to be a very good location for us. It provides political stability, very high governance indicators. For instance, very low corruption. The business environment is very good. So, it's very attractive in many ways. The rule of law is also very high. And of course, it's growing very fast. The GDP growth has been above 6% for most of the past years. I think it's expected to be above 7% even in the next couple of years. And we have a lot of support from the government. It's very, very eager to increase their energy supply, of course, in an environmental friendly way. Of course, it's looking also at renewable energy, but they need stable, clean energy. And they have made ways, basically, to develop nuclear energy, which is one of their strong mandates. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:06] Interesting. Would that be just for the research facility or is that for the first commercial facility that you guys look to target Rwanda? 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:13:13] So first, we have this critical demonstration reactor. This is going to start as soon as we have closed our financing round, which is what we're in the middle of right now. We expect towards the beginning of 2024 to start building it for a couple of years and then to operate it for another couple of years. And after that, we will look at building our first reactor. And it's not clear yet where it will be, but if all goes well in Rwanda, that's one natural choice. And in parallel, we are also looking at some other countries for the next reactors. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:48] Absolutely, absolutely. And you mentioned all the opportunities for clean fuels and clean technologies. You know, I think there's so much potential there to decarbonize the globe. And you really hit on a point that I think is so critical and maybe not discussed enough, which is that energy security point. Producing stable baseload energy through nuclear is so critical no matter the nuclear technology. And there are so many people who don't have access to energy, period, not just clean energy. So, if you can start them on clean energy, it's much better than having to move a country off of that to clean energy. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:14:31] Yes, that's right. We are really hoping... You know, Africa, in many ways, has leapfrogged the rest of the world because in some aspects, they started later. But for instance, in mobile telephony, they started later, but then they moved so fast that they are well ahead of many other countries which had started many decades earlier. So, we are hoping... There are already some African countries which have nuclear energy. Only two I believe; South Africa and Egypt. But there's a humongous need, so we are really excited to see them move toward both increasing their power supply in a way that is not producing emissions. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:15:18] And as you know, nuclear energy is not just not producing emissions, but it's also rather environmentally friendly, especially with these small reactors because it's very low resource usage. Actually, since I'm new to the sector, it really shocked me how little is known. Okay, renewable energies are, of course, environmentally friendly in many ways, but I find it's not discussed enough over the whole life cycle. So, these huge windmills... 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:15:51] First of all, I don't personally like to see forests of windmills; I would prefer to see forests of trees. And we don't discuss enough what happens, at least in the public debate, what happens with these humongous metallic structures. It's not trivial. We know that solar batteries, there are some issues in recycling them. But these small modular reactors, they have very low resource usage. 

Olivia Columbus [00:16:16] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I always encourage folks to do research on waste... Really how much waste is produced from different energy sources? Because the amount of waste produced by nuclear on a per person or per megawatt capacity is so much smaller than other energy sources. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:16:35] Yes, especially. It's very different to look at the whole life cycle which is what is often missing. 

Olivia Columbus [00:16:40] Absolutely, absolutely. And such an important topic that I think we make sure people are aware of. 

Olivia Columbus [00:16:47] Well, Claire, thank you so much for joining us today. I want to give you the opportunity to share your vision for our future, our energy mix, and where you hope nuclear fits into that looking 10, 20, 30 years down the road. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:17:02] I think it's inevitable that nuclear will play a larger role given that we need much more energy, I think by a factor of... We did some calculations. By mid-century, I think the yearly consumption will be multiplied by four or five. So, it's obvious we need much more energy which is clean, so low-carbon. Of course there are at the moment, many currents against nuclear. I mean, being in Germany, we are very well aware of that. But I think it's just a matter of time that people will realize there's just no other way. Nuclear energy will be very significant in the energy landscape of the future. There's just no competitor, no valuable competitor. Of course, it will be a mix, but I think the importance of nuclear will rise tremendously by obligation. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:18:03] I think one of the barriers at the moment is, of course, public perception, but I think it's changing. And something else is the legislation which needs also to move to be pertinent for these new reactors. This is also something which we're confronting with and we're helping to develop, especially in countries that at the moment may not have or do not have legislation for the nuclear sector. We hope to also help them leapfrog in this area so that they develop a legislation which is pertinent to these innovative reactors. 

Olivia Columbus [00:18:49] Absolutely. Well, Claire, thank you so much for joining us today on Titans of Nuclear. 

Claire Schaffnit-Chatterjee [00:18:53] Thank you.

Olivia Columbus [00:00:58] We are here today with Sander de Groot, who is the CTO and co-founder of Thorizon. Sander, welcome to Titans of Nuclear. 

Sander de Groot [00:01:05] Thank you. 

Olivia Columbus [00:01:06] So Sander, how did you originally get into the nuclear industry? 

Sander de Groot [00:01:10] So, I graduated as a mechanical engineer, and after a short while in an engineering company, I moved to NRG. NRG is a nuclear research organization and medical isotope producer in the Netherlands and operator of High Flux Reactor in Petten. I've been working there since 2000, for over 22 years. 

Sander de Groot [00:01:27] And in the last few years at NRG, I initiated the molten salt reactor program at NRG. Molten salt reactors became very popular in that period. Of course, these reactors have been operated in the '50s, and after that, basically stopped any developments in this field. But I thought the technology was hugely interesting. So I decided, "Let's initiate a program at NRG."

Sander de Groot [00:01:52] Within that program, an idea emerged for a molten salt reactor, to design and build it in certain way. And within NRG, there was not really a possibility to develop this further, so with the agreement of NRG, we started Thorizon and picked up that concept. We developed it further in my own time, at my own risk, with a number of people who were interested in this. We submitted the patents, got in contact with nuclear industry parties, for example, Orano, which is a major partner for us. And then, we got in contact with investors and we closed a financing round last year's summer. And since then, I'm full time working for Thorizon. 

Olivia Columbus [00:02:38] Very exciting. We will dive into all of that in just a moment, but I want to talk a little bit more about NRG and the work you did there. So just for our audience who may be less familiar with NRG... The Dutch NRG, because there is another NRG which is completely separate. They operate the PALLAS Reactor, which the high-temperature flux reactor in the Netherlands. They also provide other support for organizations in terms of things like licensing, is that correct? 

Sander de Groot [00:03:05] Yes, yes. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:09] Did you work at all on the PALLAS Reactor or were you just very specifically focused on the molten salt program? 

Sander de Groot [00:03:13] No, when I started to work, I was working in this consultancy department of energy. So, I was in the computational engineering field doing structural mechanic analysis, fracture mechanics, safety analysis, and also designed facilities that were put in the High Flux Reactor. And after that, I moved to more project management of irradiations. So, fuel material, irradiations in the High Flux Reactor. And I was a lot involved in high-temperature reactors, basically, at that time. And after that, moved more into the business development side. And from that position, I initiated the molten salt reactor program. 

Olivia Columbus [00:03:47] Got it. And so, you guys are doing a lot of the medical isotopes, is that correct? Are they primarily for the Netherlands? Are you guys producing them broadly across Europe? I know in the United States, Canada produces quite a few of our medical isotopes. Are you guys sort of doing that same support in Europe? 

Sander de Groot [00:04:04] Yes. Well, NRG is basically providing 30% of the world demand. So, it's a lot.

Olivia Columbus [00:04:10] Wow. That's really interesting because I know that the Netherlands has, obviously, a fabulous nuclear regulator and nuclear history, but they only have one commercial operating reactor right now. We just had Carlo Wolters on the podcast recently. 

Sander de Groot [00:04:27] Ah, okay. Yes. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:27] I think he was last week's episode. So, that was wonderful. Carlos from EPZ, for anyone who's not familiar, which is the the nuclear utility in the Netherlands. And then, is the PALLAS Reactor the only other research facility or are there other research reactors in the country as well? 

Sander de Groot [00:04:45] PALLAS is basically a reactor that is currently being constructed. So, it's a replacement of the High Flux Reactor, which is the existing material test reactor and medical isotope production facility. So, yeah, it's a replacement; that's what PALLAS is. 

Olivia Columbus [00:04:59] But that's the only other research reactor in the Netherlands, or do you have others? 

Sander de Groot [00:05:02] There's also a smaller university research reactor at Delft University. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:07] Got it. Okay, interesting. Interesting. Well, hopefully we see more commercially operating reactors come online soon in the Netherlands. 

Sander de Groot [00:05:13] Yeah, of course. Carlo has a lot of ambitions, and that's wholeheartedly supported. I think we need it.

Olivia Columbus [00:05:18] Yes, absolutely. Yes. So, back to Thorizon and the work you're doing there. It's a molten salt reactor, right. And about how big is it? 

Sander de Groot [00:05:30] The size that we're currently focused on is 250 megawatt thermal. And with that, we can produce 250 megawatts of steam, which can be then converted into electricity, about 100 megawatts electric. 

Olivia Columbus [00:05:41] Okay, so about 100 megawatts. How large of a plot size are you targeting? 

Sander de Groot [00:05:47] Well, we are currently looking at that. Generally, the core is really compact, so it's not that big. So, let's say that the nuclear island should be 30 to 30 meters type of square. But then of course, the turbine island and anything connected to it. But what we are looking at is that the core is this reactor, of course, and then you can connect to many types of different processes that are connected to. For example, so investigating that the energy that's produced is stored in salt. 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:18] Oh, right. Yes. 

Sander de Groot [00:06:18] So, our primary system is salt. The secondary system is salt. We can connect to a tertiary cycle of salt where we can store energy. And then in that sense, with all the renewable energies coming up, we can compensate and make use of the flow in demand and supply. 

Olivia Columbus [00:06:34] And so, are you guys just designing the reactor system? And then, would you partner with a company like a Malta or something who are doing those storage systems, or are you guys also looking to develop the additional systems as well? 

Sander de Groot [00:06:47] I mean, we're a startup company. So, to be able to build a reactor like that you need thousands of people and we want to do it quickly. So, you cannot do that by just growing as a startup company. At least, we think that is unreasonable. So, what we're trying to do is to team up with partners that have the expertise and people to grow really quick. So typically for something like this, which is outside of the nuclear island, we would team up with somebody else. And also, within the nuclear island we are looking for partnerships within nuclear industry to speed up our progress and accelerate as much as we can. 

Olivia Columbus [00:07:18] Absolutely. So, have you built any of those partnerships that you can publicly announce yet? 

Sander de Groot [00:07:22] Well, one of the partnerships that we are working with is Orano. And that's a very important one because we were looking at the reactor, and Orano's particularly interested in molten salt fuel production and also taking molten salt fuel back after use and incorporating that into their reprocessing facilities. So, that is really important because it takes away our concerns in producing the fuel and we can focus on our reactor design. So, that is a very important partnership. 

Olivia Columbus [00:07:49] Yeah. And so, are you targeting initial deployment in the Netherlands or are you looking at a lot of different markets? Where are you looking to build your first facility? 

Sander de Groot [00:08:29] We're looking at everything, and then we move with the wave. So, where is the largest interest? So, we're talking to Carlo as well and EPZ. They have a very large site with a nuclear destination, and we're also discussing with them, "Is your site not interesting for a system like ours?" And they're interested, but of course, we're not in any committing stage at the moment. 

Sander de Groot [00:08:49] But for them, with the ambitions to build light-water reactors, they also have concern about how to manage the fuel cycle, how to manage the waste streams that come from it. And our reactor is particularly suited to be able to take the long-lived elements out of spent fuel, using it as a fuel, and in the meantime, reducing all the long-lived waste streams that could come from light-water reactor operation. 

Olivia Columbus [00:09:10] Absolutely. Well, that's very exciting. And so, what types of customers... I mean, you mentioned storage as an option, but are you guys looking to deploy at a grid scale or are you guys thinking that you'll have industrial behind the meter customers? What are you looking at for your early deployment? 

Sander de Groot [00:09:30] Basically, what we try to do is to have that reactor operating as long as possible just to keep the economy high. So, one of the customers that could be interesting is an industrial end user that basically needs a 24/7 supply of heat. That's one of the customer directions that we're looking into. And it's the easiest one, because heat is what we produce in any case. If we produce electricity, that can also be used for a certain site, especially if industry starts to electrify hydrogen production, for example. Then, we could also support that 24/7. 

Sander de Groot [00:10:00] If we come to more like the grid, grid stability or customers that have fluctuating demand in combination with the fluctuating supply from renewables, then you come into this idea of keeping a reactor operating continuously but store the heat and use it when the demand is there. So, we're looking at all these options, basically. But the core of the system doesn't change because of that. We're stuck to the 250 megawatt thermal. It's based on our technology. This is what we think we can maximally achieve in a reasonable way, and we stick to that. 

Olivia Columbus [00:10:36] Yeah, absolutely. The Netherlands is interesting geographically because you have some neighbors that are not big fans of nuclear, especially Germany being the biggest one; Belgium as well. What challenges does that pose? But also, what opportunities are there to provide energy generated in the Netherlands to countries that do not have clean baseload power? 

Sander de Groot [00:11:03] Well, at the moment, politically, it's of course a complication. Like, Germany is really anti-nuclear and sticking on that route, so they have influence on European frameworks, on how to implement. So, it's not something that we are actively trying to change. We can't, and it doesn't help the European framework for nuclear. 

Sander de Groot [00:11:24] So we connect to France, we connect to Orano, and we have also set up an office in Lyon to strengthen this relation and make sure that we make the most out of what is present in the Netherlands and in France to accelerate our development. But we're basically not having any ambitions to start talking in Germany and try to convince them that this is really good idea. 

Olivia Columbus [00:11:47] Yeah, absolutely. And how many team members do you guys have at this point? How large is your team? 

Sander de Groot [00:11:54] We're now with 20 people in Amsterdam, and we have hired 5 people in Lyon. And we are continuously to hire. We aim for having also a 20 person team in Lyon and grow from there. So, every opportunity we can get to accelerate our program and our development, we try to pick up. 

Olivia Columbus [00:12:15] Absolutely, absolutely. Well, we like to finish these off by looking at the future, so I want to give you the opportunity to talk about what you see as the future of nuclear and where you see nuclear energy playing a role in the global energy mix going forward. 

Sander de Groot [00:12:36] Well, I think the challenges of this energy transition are so enormous that without nuclear energy, this will not work. And we also need to be quick about it. That also means that a development like what we are doing will take too long. So, we need to establish light-water reactors which are off the shelf. Build them, please, everywhere you can; we need it. And for many reasons. It's climate, it's independence, it's emissions. It's just something that you should do. 

Sander de Groot [00:13:08] Complementary to that... And this is also how we basically position ourselves. We also need to take the responsibility in the nuclear sector to look at the waste streams, to look at how do you use your resources effectively. And I think molten salt is the ultimate technology that can make the most out of nuclear materials. Both in reduction of waste, long-lived waste, and in getting the most energy out of these resources that we have. So, I see this complementary role. 

Sander de Groot [00:13:35] And with molten salt reactor technology, there are many ways you can develop this technology. You can look at moderated system, you can look at fast spectrum systems. And it's all based on molten salt. So, once we have those systems operational, I think there's a very large future for this. But as said, complement to light-water reactors. 

Olivia Columbus [00:13:56] Absolutely. Sander de Groot, thank you very much for joining us on Titans of Nuclear. 

Sander de Groot [00:13:59] Thank you.

This transcript is pending.

This transcript is pending.

This transcript is pending.