May 1, 2023

Ep 396: Oliver Stone & Joshua Goldstein - Filmmakers, Nuclear Now

Nuclear Now
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Show notes

Olivia Columbus [00:00:58] So, we are here today on Titans of Nuclear with Academy Award-winning filmmaker Oliver Stone and Joshua Goldstein, author of A Bright Future, who is now a two time Titan. Oliver and Joshua, welcome to the show.

Joshua Goldstein [00:01:11] Good to be with you.

Oliver Stone [00:01:12] Thank you, Olivia.

Olivia Columbus [00:01:14] So, today we are here to discuss the film that you two co-wrote. It's based off of Joshua's book and the film is titled Nuclear Now. It's being released in select theaters on Monday, May 1st, a week from today. I'm really excited to see the film; I'll be at your D.C. event next week. And I know that many of our listeners are also very excited to see it, and some of them already have. I also want to mention that there are a number of Titans in your film. Just to name a few, obviously Joshua, Jake DeWitt, Isabelle Boemeke, and I'm sure many more. For our listeners, if you haven't heard those episodes or want to refresh, be sure to go back and listen.

Olivia Columbus [00:01:47] So to kick it off, Oliver, the film is inspired by Joshua's book and it takes a lot from from that book, but how did you come to nuclear? Did you learn about nuclear and then come and find the book? Did you read the book first and then you were really inspired about nuclear? What was that journey like?

Oliver Stone [00:02:02] I guess I'm the new player in the game so, I'd quickly just tell you that I was just concerned. I was not a specialist at all, nor do I have a scientific background. But obviously, the future looms for everybody and it's a big concern. I mean, my films have addressed my concerns, and this is a big one. This is my children's, and potentially, grandchildren's future. And I didn't know what was going on. And it's confusing because everyone in this huge marketplace we have is talking different things, different solutions, green this, "blah, blah, blah." I was not particularly original. I just went along with the conventional. And when they banned nuclear, I thought maybe they know something that I don't know.

Oliver Stone [00:02:48] But I realized as the argument went on and on that nobody was making much sense to me. Joshua's book came along at that time. It was reviewed in the New York Times, and I thought the review was brilliant. Richard Rhodes wrote it. I read the book quickly. It's a simple book to read and not too long, thank God. And I said, "This has to be said. I presume it's accurate and I presume we have to tell this to people because it's common sense." Again, common sense.

Oliver Stone [00:03:19] And that's what we did. I called Joshua up. He didn't know me from Adam. And we talked about it and we made the deal. It took longer to make the movie than it took for all that. So, it was about two years in the making, off and on. You've seen the result.

Olivia Columbus [00:03:36] And Joshua, what was your initial reaction when you were approached to make this movie? Along with that, what are some of the differences you found in writing a screenplay or working on a screenplay versus a book?

Joshua Goldstein [00:03:46] Right. So, they turn out to be pretty different. I had these conversations with Oliver where I would say, "Oh, I've never worked on a film before. Can you tell?" Like, it's just a very different way of communicating. And I would say that the big differences were with the book. Staffan and and I... I mean, he's a nuclear engineer, I'm a professor. We're both very careful to get all the facts right and to back it all up with graphs and data and footnotes and make sure every footnote is correct and all of that, which is great for a book, but it's not very emotional. And that's what you want in a film, is something... A human story, not a bunch of facts and figures.

Joshua Goldstein [00:04:28] So, the early versions... I sent in... It's not a screenplay, really, but a narrative. And then, people in Hollywood said, "That's going to put everybody to sleep. That's not going to work." And then, Oliver would come back with something that works better as a film. And I'd say, "That's great. I really love that, but it does have a lot of mistakes in it." And, you know, we'd go back and forth that way. So, getting sort of the artistic side and the scientific side to work together took a lot of doing, but I'm very happy how it came out. It doesn't have mistakes, it is all scientifically-based, and it's a beautiful movie. And Oliver got Vangelis to write the soundtrack for his last soundtrack.

Oliver Stone [00:05:16] [00:05:16]Additionally, we went to Russia. Rosatom cooperated, France EDF cooperated, and the Idaho Nuclear Lab, Advanced Lab in Idaho cooperated because I think the Department of Energy... You arranged for that, Josh. I don't know how you did it, but it worked. They gave us a lot of good information. [21.4s]

Olivia Columbus [00:05:39] That's wonderful. And when you were really going on this sort of deep... I mean, to be able to effectively talk about nuclear, you really need to be doing a bit of a deep dive into the industry. How did you go about that, Oliver? Were there any resources you found particularly valuable?

Oliver Stone [00:05:54] We reached out to everybody we could. Josh helped us. He's been in this for years. Maybe I should have reached out further, but we had a lot on our agenda. We traveled, we met... We had the cooperation, as I said, of some... China was the only one that we couldn't get into, partly because of the situation politically. But we learned about China. So I think... What would you say? I think it was a very difficult process because I wanted to make it logical for myself. It was my learning experience. It wasn't about trying to make a scientifically objective thing. Maybe that became the issue, but I wanted to say, "How do I understand this thing?".

Oliver Stone [00:06:38] Go back to the very past, the beginning of the world. Where is uranium? What has the universe given us, this tremendous discovery, this miracle that we have completely abused? We haven't waken up to it. What Marie Curie found... And Einstein worked on it, and Fermi, all these people... They gave us a miracle and we screwed it up, really screwed it up. It went very well for a while; we were getting there in the 1970s. There wouldn't be a discussion about climate change if we'd continued on that path, with accidents or without accidents. It was only one significant accident and that was terrible. And it became such a huge outcry of protests everywhere in the world.

Oliver Stone [00:07:22] Unfortunately, certainly the oil lobbies had something to do with it. We know that. The Rockefeller Report of 1956 was huge in condemning radioactivity. And of course, then the environmental movement, which we all support. Wonderful thing. But as Dr. Moore says in the film, "We got one thing wrong." And he was one of the founders of Greenpeace. "We got one thing wrong," and that was nuclear power. They combine nuclear power with nuclear war, and that is a huge, huge misunderstanding.

Oliver Stone [00:08:00] So, here we are. Humanity's screwed to a certain degree, and we're way, way behind. And my realistic estimate is that this film is not going to change anything overnight because there's so much ingrained resistance to nuclear from people. Most people would like it, but it's not going to change the course right now. But I'm hoping, by the time it gets worse and worse and worse, they're going to wake up. It's not going to work with renewables. It's just not going to get there, nor is oil going to get us there without more carbon. So, I don't see a solution except nuclear is the basic solution and we never used it, damn it. We never used it. So, if we're going to go out of business as a world, we've got to take that fact into account.

Olivia Columbus [00:08:47] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, your process of research is actually very similar to what we did when we came to the nuclear space. We came as total outsiders, our founder was a Silicon Valley tech guy. He decided he wanted to learn about nuclear, and he launched a podcast to have conversations with hundreds and hundreds of people in the industry. And through that, really learned what went wrong and how do we fix it. So, I think that is really the value, the way to have that journey because you really identify the challenges, but then you also identify the ways that we make things happen.

Oliver Stone [00:09:22] And at the end, we wanted to show some future, the hope. So, we went to Idaho. We showed some of the new developments and panaceas, too. But there's a lot of young generation people like yourself who are doing their homework. And that's what's crucial.

Olivia Columbus [00:09:41] Yeah, absolutely. So, when you guys initially pitched this film to producers...

Oliver Stone [00:09:46] Nobody wanted it. No, nobody wanted it. No, come on. I couldn't get to first base with this thing. There's no protagonist. And it's just a certain force; it's an element. Uranium is the protagonist. So, here we ended up struggling to get it made. Rich people subsidized us, thank God. And my partner, Fernando Sulichin, is European, and European contacts and some American contacts put this thing together. We eked it out over these two years. We'll probably never get our money back; it's one of these nonprofit enterprises. But so what? This is important. We're hoping this showing, a theatrical showing, is the beginning. We'll go to digital, platforming it and platforming it. And educational, that distributor is reaching out.

Oliver Stone [00:10:38] But basically, we have to get it outside the United States; we have to go around the world. And that's where the foreign distributors are very important to us. This is a film about India, China, Korea, Japan. It's not just about the United States, which is a problem. We have 1 billion people in the rich countries and 7 billion in the lesser countries, and they have to deal... They want electricity, as well as other reasons, industrial products. So, what are we going to do?

Olivia Columbus [00:11:10] Absolutely. You mentioned you traveled in the U.S., you also traveled abroad. Did you see differences in public perception in various countries that you traveled to? And what were some of those nuances that you noticed?

Oliver Stone [00:11:25] What I noticed is most people don't even think about it because nuclear is uneventful. When you open a plant, people forget about it and it goes and it works and it works. In Germany, they were working fine, but all of a sudden the population got excited because the Green Party started saying awful things about nuclear. And of course, they point always to the Chernobyl disaster, which we deal with at length in the film. We went to Russia to get to the bottom of it with the scientists who were at Chernobyl. And it's an interesting section, but Chernobyl has been "boogeymaned" into a modern myth. If we'd had more accidents, if they'd had more accidents in nuclear from the beginning, the world would be much more relative in understanding the nature of the... The deaths in nuclear are minor compared to what the deaths are in the fossil fuel industry.

Olivia Columbus [00:12:16] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think when you contextualize some of these facts in ways that people understand, it's just so impactful. I'm always really interested by the fact that the United States Capitol has higher radiation levels than are allowed at a nuclear plant because it's made of marble. Like, these things are so normal in our everyday lives, but when you talk about them in the context of nuclear, they feel so scary.

Olivia Columbus [00:12:39] Josh, have you noticed a shift in public sentiment towards nuclear since you published your book, originally? Do you feel like more people are starting to come around to it?

Joshua Goldstein [00:12:50] Yeah, definitely in the last few years. It's not because of my book really, but just the energy crisis this last year in Europe, especially, has made a big difference. And generally, the pro-nuclear people are speaking out now trying to get past this wall of fear and denial and the taboo on it. I think there's been quite a bit of change.

Joshua Goldstein [00:13:13] What's the problem in a lot of countries, and Germany's one of them, is that the public supports nuclear power... Which is kind of a miracle after all this propaganda about how terrible and dangerous it is... But supports it. But politically, especially in parliamentary systems, the Green Party has that balance of seats that you need their votes in order to form a government and they demand that you shut down nuclear. So, nobody else much cares about it. They're passionate and fanatical about it, and you need their seats to form a government. So, in Germany, Belgium, Sweden, it happened in all these places. The government says, "Okay, let's form a government. We'll give you your way on nuclear power, and then you give us our government so we can do all these other things.".

Joshua Goldstein [00:13:59] I think that's one reason that China and Russia end up in the lead on the technology, because we're shooting ourselves in the foot, so to speak, in the Western countries by these. The ability of a small minority of people to scream about it so loudly, and they have a lot of money behind them too, spending billions of dollars to tell us how dangerous it is. And then, even most of the public supports it. And by the way, the closer you live to a nuclear plant, the more supportive you are is what the polling shows. But those voices can be drowned out from the loud minority in that kind of system.

Olivia Columbus [00:14:40] Absolutely. It's unfortunate that it takes things like literally not having enough energy for countries to change their policy and become more favorable towards nuclear like we're seeing in countries like Poland. It's not just that they have coal-fired energy, too much dirty energy, it's that they literally don't have enough to keep the lights on. And it shouldn't be that way. It's literally inhumane to not choose nuclear, because you are choosing something that is worse for your...

Oliver Stone [00:15:17] I believe that's the future. I mean, I think it'll get worse and worse and worse because no one's going to do really anything about it. There's no mandate to build more nuclear like we're talking about. As it gets worse and worse, there's going to be a scramble. There's going to be a real scramble to build as fast as possible, because they would have exhausted all the other efforts with all the wind... And wind is good. I mean, we support renewables, but they're very expensive and land is required. And solar has its problems, too. That's all good, but still, for the aggregate total required, it's nothing compared to what we need to do. So, as people become more and more panicked, it's obvious that there's going to have to be a faster and faster reaction. And the only thing that we know works today is nuclear fission.

Olivia Columbus [00:16:08] Absolutely. And I mean, that's not even accounting for the fact that we're going to see a global increase in energy threefold in the next 20 years and the fact that there are so many heavy energy-using industries and companies that need baseload power. You know, the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow. Renewables are intermittent, so they're not a solution. For something like a data center or a hospital, those things can't go down. You need a baseload solution, and that's really where nuclear comes in.

Olivia Columbus [00:16:42] And sort of on that, I'm really curious... There's a lot of conversation about the next "nuclear renaissance." It's something I feel like, every ten years, people talk about. I think we really need to approach that using large builds, the Gen III SMRs, and advanced reactors to get us to this nuclear shift. But I think we need to primarily focus on what we can build the fastest and what can solve some of those fringe problems. I'm curious what your opinion is on how we solve this technology mix question and how we really get electrons on the grid.

Joshua Goldstein [00:17:21] I like all those sizes. The big ones, like the Chinese Hualong 1, China can just build those fast now. They're pretty cheap workhorse reactors, we call it in the film. And as fast as they can build them, they can replace coal plants. And Poland, too, buying a big reactor is very good. We like the SMRs also because, you know cheaper and faster to build. And then, the microreactors and smaller stuff also very, very good. And we touch on it at the end of the film, the potentials for producing hydrogen with nuclear and that kind of thing.

Joshua Goldstein [00:18:00] I'm also very interested in what your founder is doing with the smaller reactor in Poland to go, and other companies, too, to go behind the meter and deliver both heat and electricity directly to industrial users. And this is what X-Energy is doing with Dow Chemical for their first reactor on the Gulf Coast in the United States. So then, you don't need the transmission lines. You don't need all the sprawl of the wind and solar. You get the heat directly, and that's what the industries need. A chemical plant uses a lot of heat as well as electricity, but by making it smaller, it's faster to build. You can start selling your product faster and make some money and not wait out there for 10 years with a billion dollars invested, or $10 billion or whatever, and then get it behind the meter and directly to where it's being used much more efficient and cheap. It has to be cheap, or else it's not going to replace fossil fuel. And it should be cheap.

Oliver Stone [00:19:08] It will if we're desperate enough. And then, cost won't matter. If you're looking death in the face, you're going to pay your way out of it somehow. So really, you'll get desperate. It needs to get desperate.

Olivia Columbus [00:19:21] Yeah. I think the real barrier is getting the construction timelines down and manageable regulatory costs. And if you can achieve those two barriers, you can grow nuclear the same way we grew renewables, right? It's not about the technology. It doesn't matter what technology you choose as long as you can sort of apply a renewables-minded approach to how you scale it. That's at least sort of the conclusion we've come to, and I think is what we're seeing the market sort of incentivize. So, hopefully that takes hold and hopefully we're able to see this nuclear future that we want to build.

Olivia Columbus [00:20:00] I would love to know, without giving too much away about the film, people are going to see it... What was the most thought provoking or sort of impactful experience you had while making this movie?

Oliver Stone [00:20:15] Well for me, it was getting to know a whole world that I did not know. So, I went to, as I said, to these reactors, most of which are very uneventful. So, as always the case, in France it's the same thing. It's a government, EDF. There have been some problems, but it's a very well-run organization and it's been there from the beginning. France went nuclear in 1970s and '80s with de Gaulle. They converted 58 reactors in France in 15 years. They built fast because they had the oil shortage as well as there were other problems in France. Compared to what German electricity prices are, or were, there's no comparison. France was cheaper. But now, France has to replace its nuclear reactors because the maintenance time has run out. Same thing was true in Sweden,right? Same thing in Japan, Korea. We're hoping for Indonesia now. We're hoping that... India is certainly a huge player here. Lots of coal in India, but they aren't building reactors. That's hope. And China, as I said, that Hualong, the Hualong's a big one. And boiling water, right? It's a boiling water reactor. Am I right?

Joshua Goldstein [00:22:12] That's a pressurized water reactor.

Oliver Stone [00:22:14] It's not, okay. Well, then there's the one...

Joshua Goldstein [00:22:17] It's a light-water reactor like most.

Oliver Stone [00:22:20] GE Hitachi in America is building something...

Olivia Columbus [00:22:25] In Canada, yes.

Joshua Goldstein [00:22:26] That's the boiling water, yeah.

Oliver Stone [00:22:27] BWR-X, is that the name of it, 300? That has great hope. Great hope. ThorCon, you didn't mention.

Olivia Columbus [00:22:39] In Indonesia.

Joshua Goldstein [00:22:39] Right, ThorCon. Build it in Korean shipyards the way you build big natural gas equipment or cruise ships or these big, complicated machines that they build in the shipyards over and over again and get really good at it and produce them cheaply and then float them to where they're going. But this all has to do with the scalability. That's what I like about ThorCon, it's really scalable. You can crank them out by the tens, by the hundreds, by the thousands, eventually.

Joshua Goldstein [00:23:06] And if you look at the speed at which clean energy has ever been added to the grid in different countries and contexts, I think nine out of the ten fastest are nuclear. So, renewables did scale fast and it has scaled quickly. It certainly showed that the cost comes down as you do something over and over again. But in terms of actually getting the energy onto the grid, nuclear is the fastest. And one of my favorite graphs, which isn't in the film in the final version, is France's electricity mix. It's mostly fossil fuel, and then in 15 years, the fossil fuel just drops completely out and it's replaced with nuclear. Nuclear up, fossil down, and then you have a decarbonized grid which they've had to this day, and as Oliver said, it's a cheap electricity source. So, it's just a great, proven example.

Joshua Goldstein [00:23:59] And all the ideas how we're going to solve climate change, I like a lot of them, but they're not proven. You know, the deep geothermal... Great idea, hasn't been done. Fusion, 30 years in the future. Maybe now it's less. And so forth. They may work, they may not work. But I've got a granddaughter who's less than a year old, and we're talking about staking her life on the decisions we make now. And I'm not going to risk it on something unproven. I want to do what France did and what we know works, build it really fast and take the fossil fuels off and decarbonize.

Joshua Goldstein [00:24:33] Everything we've done on climate change, we keep putting renewables on and so forth, but the film makes this point, we are not actually reducing carbon emissions. And we haven't for 30 years since we've been talking about how we need to reduce carbon emission. We have to recognize we're in a big moment of failure about climate change. It's not like we're on track and we just need to tweak it a little bit or we need a little bit of nuclear to fill out where the wind and solar don't get. It's not like that. We're way, way off track. We need a real, substantial change.

Oliver Stone [00:25:07] That's the truth, that's the truth. And every time you mention nuclear, the media is asleep to some large degree. The first thing that comes to their minds if they haven't done their homework is danger. That's the first thing. They say, "Well, nuclear is great, but it's dangerous."

Olivia Columbus [00:25:25] Absolutely. And Josh, you mentioned France... My favorite example of nuclear buildout is South Korea. Talk about embracing nuclear in a really desperate situation. Post-Korean War, they were just completely decimated, and they used nuclear not only to bring themselves out of poverty but to become a massive industrial force. And it's just such an incredible story. They also had an energy security concern, because they couldn't have a pipeline running through North Korea. That was just not an option. So, I think it is such a fascinating story. And if you look at these historical examples, you see how we could, how we will, honestly, embrace nuclear when we come to this global point of desperation. It's just unfortunate that we're going have to get there before we can... Hopefully we don't have to get there, but unfortunately that may be.

Joshua Goldstein [00:26:18] The other thing about South Korea's nuclear until they stopped building it five years ago, now they're starting again... It was the cheapest thing of all the energy. Cheaper than hydroelectricity, cheaper than coal. And they are building not a lot of them, but they've started to build the same reactor over and over again, the APR-1400. And they built it... I guess, four of them in South Korea.

Joshua Goldstein [00:26:44] And now they've been building them in the United Arab Emirates, a four reactor plant. Three of them are on the grid. The fourth one's under construction, coming along. It's on budget, it's on schedule. It's all those things that the anti-nuclear people say nuclear can't do. They're doing it on the ground, in real time, in the United Arab Emirates. And almost never do you see anything in the news about that. I'm sure almost everybody out there has no idea that's going on. But here it is. Here's the example. You can build a lot of electricity really fast and cheap if you just do it this way.

Olivia Columbus [00:27:18] Absolutely. And it's such a point of national pride, too, in the UAE. We've had some folks from the program come on the podcast. They are so happy to sort of show it off. And they should be, because it really is such a great example of how we can achieve nuclear at scale.

Olivia Columbus [00:27:35] So, I want to sort of wrap us up, but I want to give you both an opportunity to sort of outline your vision. Obviously, it's going to take a lot for us to get there, but what does your nuclear future look like?

Oliver Stone [00:27:52] I think it'll be squeezed. We'll be squeezed down to the very bitter end because humanity has to wake up and it's just going to take desperation. Desperation will be all forms of climate change that are going to upset people, make immigration enormous. There'll be so much movement in the world away from countries and so much disruption. War will hopefully not become popular again, but there's a possibility there'll be more wars too. But it'll reach this place of madness. And when you have madness, people react. I mean, we're not stupid as a race, although we seem like it. We'll react and we'll build fast. We have no other choice at this point. I don't see us... I don't see carbon capture. I love it, but I don't see it as a possibility of realism.

Joshua Goldstein [00:28:45] I guess my vision is that someone's going to figure out how to make nuclear really cheap, which it should be, inherently. That's the clip in the film about how the fuel pellet the size of the tip of your pinkie has as much energy as a ton of coal, and it costs a couple of bucks and the ton of coal costs $100. So, it should be the cheapest thing if we just do it right. And somebody's going to figure out how to make that work. Maybe it'll be Last Energy, maybe it'll be ThorCon, maybe it'll be Westinghouse. I don't know. But when that happens, I think things will start to shift really quickly. And people ask me, "Will people ever stop being afraid of nuclear?" And I say, "Yes. When it's $0.02 a kilowatt hour, no one will be afraid of it and they'll forget why they ever were afraid of it." Just like flying where we know we're afraid of flying, but we still fly because it's so good, right? It gets us where we want to go.

Olivia Columbus [00:29:39] And you're exposed to radiation when you fly.

Joshua Goldstein [00:29:41] Right, right, right.

Oliver Stone [00:29:43] The problem with what Josh is saying in my mind is that it's an out. It lets people off the hook. You can say, "Oh, well, for now it's just not cheap enough." Well, that's not the issue. We're going to have to spend money if we're in desperate conditions. And we're getting there. And we are there. What the hell? The world has changed remarkably in 10 years, 15 years. And 2050 would be in my out point, 2040 more likely. But I don't see much... I don't see that we're going to change this. Waiting around for a cost, somebody to invent something with nuclear seems like utopia to me.

Joshua Goldstein [00:30:23] Well, I think that if you start to build them, people get more used to them and less afraid of them.

Oliver Stone [00:30:31] That's right.

Joshua Goldstein [00:30:31] And right now everything's all frozen up in the countries that are afraid of it. And I'm hoping the film does some good, just in a broad way to make people less afraid, to get the taboo lifted off the subject, put it on the table, let's talk about it, how do we get there and so forth. But I think in different countries it'll look different. In some countries, the government will say, "Yes, we want it." Like the UAE, "We're going to build these plants and that's it." And in other countries, it's going to be more companies jumping into the space and trying to make it work like we're doing in the United States.

Olivia Columbus [00:31:11] Absolutely.

Joshua Goldstein [00:31:11] I think we'll get there. But I agree with Oliver that it's not going to be timely enough. But if we spend the 2020s developing the technologies that we need to grow really fast in the 2030s and '40s, that's where I see the best hope. Start building now, start developing now, but don't expect it to pay off right away in the next few years.

Oliver Stone [00:31:35] And hopefully... The oil companies could do it. They have the profits. Did you see the recent report about how Shell Oil buried all that information back in the '70s? Shell Oil, did you see that report? They buried all these documents that pointed clearly to climate change.

Joshua Goldstein [00:31:54] The oil companies have vast amounts of money and they're used to making these big investments in risky things. It's pretty daunting if you're not a big oil company. Like ThorCon, you know? For a billion dollars, you can put money in to build the first ThorCon and own the future of energy and everything's great. And I can give you a list as long as your arm of all the risks. It's completely insane, the political risks, the economic risks, etc. You're probably going to lose all your money, but if you don't, then you're going to be fabulously rich and then the world will be saved. Oil companies do that all the time. They'll spend billions of dollars to drill dry wells somewhere, but the one that works out is going to make them a ton of money.

Joshua Goldstein [00:32:38] Unfortunately, oil companies are in competition, to some extent, with nuclear energy. So, it may not be where the money comes from. So, that we have to work out. And that may be... I think I agree with Oliver. That's where a government has to step in and say, "Look, this is ridiculous. Energy is critical national infrastructure. Climate change is a threat to our way of life. We need to just build nuclear reactors and not get all hung up on the private sector having to do everything."

Olivia Columbus [00:33:12] Well, I am very excited to see the film next week and encourage our audience to see it either in person on Monday or if it's not playing somewhere near you stream it when it's available. Oliver Stone, Joshua Goldstein, thank you so much for joining us on Titans of Nuclear.

Oliver Stone [00:33:28] Thank you very much.

Joshua Goldstein [00:33:29] We should mention the website for the film. It's and it lists all the theaters, 375 theaters that are going to be screening it one night only, May 1st, Monday. So, that's where you can find it all. Also, watch the trailer, which is really fun and wonderful.

Olivia Columbus [00:33:46] Great.

Joshua Goldstein [00:33:46] Thanks for having us.

Oliver Stone [00:33:47] Thank you.

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